Why are there closed competitions? For example, why can only citizens of Europe/Israel compete in the European Championship?

Hi Stefan, This is the same in all sports. Maybe one day we can have an Open European Championship? Have fun, Ron

Hi Ron, [quote="Ron":2b4kft9y]This is the same in all sports.[/quote:2b4kft9y] Yeah, I guess I should've made clear that this is the only answer I do *not* accept . Is there also a real reason behind it that actually makes sense?

Hey, we can't edit here? Ok, then I must write another post... My reason for asking this is that I'm more and more against the concept of countries and citizenship. And absolutely against national pride. Right now there's this soccer thing in Germany and people go crazy. I don't understand why they cheer for "their" country. Some even have posters like "world champs partying here". These people have absolutely no reason/right to call themselves world champs. And I don't mean because there's no 2006 champion yet. But because they don't have anything to do with the soccer players who are actually in the competition. The only connection is citizenship which is completely artificial. Same with a dumb German newspaper writing "We are Pope" a while ago. There's exactly one guy who's pope and he just happens to be German. Stupid. Makes me sick. So I'm really interested whether there's a real understandable non-artificial reason behind making a competition closed. Cause I don't understand it at all right now.

Hi Stefan, Good thing about having closed championships is that you can both a closed and an open championship. Dutch and Dutch Open, German and German Open, European and European Open. People are just interested in who is the best in some geographical area. Question to you: why are you posting your German national records on your website? Aren't you an Earthling instead of a German? Now what would happen if some alien with four hands and eight eyes would turn up for a competition? Have fun, Ron

[quote="Ron":f94iltmt]Good thing about having closed championships is that you can both a closed and an open championship.[/quote:f94iltmt] Yet another stupid artificial reason. Who says you can have "each" only once? First of all we did have several Dutch Open (for example) already. Just in different years. But limiting it to once a year is artificial, too. Just look at Caltech's four competitions last year. And I don't see any reason we shouldn't have a competition every day except for practicality. No need to restrict things artificially for no good reason. [quote:f94iltmt]People are just interested in who is the best in some geographical area.[/quote:f94iltmt] Yeah and I'd like to know why. Why should it make sense to ask who's "the best if most people aren't allowed to compete"? [quote:f94iltmt]why are you posting your German national records on your website? Aren't you an Earthling instead of a German?[/quote:f94iltmt] Absolutely correct. That's why I'm going to remove all my German/European records from that page with the next update. But I'm redesigning my whole site quite a bit now which will take some more time. Didn't think about "Earthling" yet. Don't like it, though. Thought about "human" but don't like it, either. Right now I'd call myself a "being", I'm quite happy with that one. But actually I don't think there's reason to ask "what" I am anyway. [quote:f94iltmt]Now what would happen if some alien with four hands and eight eyes would turn up for a competition? [/quote:f94iltmt] I'll think about that as soon as it happens. But it shouldn't be a problem for "being" anyway.

[quote="StefanPochmann":2hm85id7]That's why I'm going to remove all my German/European records from that page with the next update.[/quote:2hm85id7] Alright, I just updated that one page now because it was bugging me too much. Btw, didn't mean to call *you* stupid, I just meant that general strange habit of most humans to support/accept limiting things to once a year.

Oh, and one more thing: I don't prefer "being" anymore. It does achieve my goal of not partioning all beings in a way I don't like (since it puts all of them in a single huge partition) but it doesn't really reflect what I'm thinking. I now prefer the opposite extreme, putting each being into it's own partition. In other words, I prefer "individual" now. The reason is that I'm ok with being called a "being", but I do not represent all beings. I only "represent" myself, as an individual. And in the Euro2006 registration form I'm asked "Country you are representing". But I am *not* representing any country. I'm not representing anybody or anything but myself! And since the form also says "(only Europe and Israel!)", I currently cannot register for Euro2006.

[quote="StefanPochmann":2h9wsc2s]And since the form also says "(only Europe and Israel!)", I currently cannot register for Euro2006.[/quote:2h9wsc2s] Um, to be more precise the real reason is not this restriction but just the request for a "country" at all (and the requirement to enter all fields). Would be the same problem if all countries were allowed. I had first written the above because "None" is neither Europe nor Israel. I might enter "None, I only represent myself". Is that ok?

Hang on Stefan, you'll feel better after the world cup, you'll see!

[quote="Gilles":1ze436bp]Hang on Stefan, you'll feel better after the world cup, you'll see! [/quote:1ze436bp] Hmm, yeah, I might feel better because those annoying people all around me the last days/weeks will become less annoying again.

Sorry you have to deal with that. If you lived in the United States and your soccer team wasn't any good, you might not mind national pride as much. I don't really like closed competitions for a different reason. It's not a matter of national pride for me, but if someone is in the area and wants to compete, I would feel bad denying them of the opportunity to experience the things that citizens of one country able to experience. That's why the US National Championships is an "open" event, though only US competitors can compete for the US titles. Unfortunately, as Stefan has to deal with annoying soccer fans, I have to deal with stupid press and so we're going to keep the international competitors in a "seperate competition" so that the media doesn't get confused. They will compete and function as if they were being judged by the US standard, but they won't be affecting the US competitors. Perhaps they should... perhaps they shouldn't. I'll let you know how it works.

[quote="Ron":3kiwhlp1]People are just interested in who is the best in some geographical area.[/quote:3kiwhlp1] Then why isn't Macky allowed as "normal" competitor in the US nationals? He's living in the US, right?

maybe he wants to represent japan? personaly i also dont really care about the region thing. Like when they ask what country i want to represent i am tempted to just say a random place each time.

Macky made the decision in 2004 to represent Japan in all WCA competitions. He made it clear before the US National 2004 Championships that he did not want to US National Rubik's Cube Champion title.

Well, being a person who [u:1ntfqvbp]technically[/u:1ntfqvbp] should not have been competing in US Nationals, I got a lot of questions from people. The main question was: If you are Canadian, Why are you going to US Nationals? To that, I almost always answered one of 2 ways: 1. I am allowed to go and compete, I just can't be crowned US Champion. 2. I just want to go to spend the time with the people, I don't really care if I win. You coulda told me that even if I broke every world record out there that I wouldn't win a trophy, I wouldn't care. I might have a hard time justifying to my parents flying all that way for "essentially" nothing, but non-cubers just don't understand that the main reason we go to competitions is to set our times, and have an awesome time hanging out with everyone else. Craig

Alright, so maybe Macky wasn't the perfect example. Just chose him cause he's well known and living in a country he's not citizen of (or is he?). That was the point and I still say it's *not* about who's "the best in some geographical area" as long as people living right at the venue aren't allowed to compete (cause they're citizens of some other country) and people living at the opposite side of the planet are allowed (cause they're citizen of the "right" country).

Hi guys, Back from a great holiday, with lots of practice. With me I think more than 80 percent of the people like national, school, club, continental competitions. That is the reason why there are so many national, school, club, continental competitions in the first place. The reasons behind this could be: [list:3vviutlv] tradition, there were national competitions before there were world competitions pride, who is the best of my group of people? interest, who is the best of my group of people? practicalness, if each competition would be open, then there could just be too many people competing fairness, any good UK snooker player could beat all (still amateur) Dutch players. change, it is good that different people can win. That is also why I like to have many different events/puzzles. This also goes for prizes, always going to the same people. excitement, a European championship is attracting more competitors than Belgian Open. Many European cubers would be interested to compete among the best in Europe. It is more exciting, it is bigger, it is being part of a bigger group than your local community. It is good that a European Championship is only held every other year. This adds to the excitement. distinction, if all competitions were open, then each competition could be the world championship. We could have 1,000 world championships in one year. Which would be the real world championship? media interest, like many people also the media have this national interest (example: Dutch media were interested in Dutch National Championship, but not in Dutch Open Championship) [/list:u:3vviutlv] Of course you could oppose to any of these reasons. But I think this is how most (outsider) people think. On the other hand we could just forget these reasons and have only open competitions. This would help because some (DEFINITELY NOT MANY) people would travel a long way to also compete. Tokyo Open had only 1 foreigner, US Nationals had only 1 (not sure about this, also not counting the competitors with a different passport, who btw. are often very proud to represent their country). When I was practicing near the pool during my holiday, there were several people coming to me asking me about our hobby. They ALWAYS want to know the world record for a puzzle, and about 8 out of 10 asked me also who was the best in their country (most of them were from Spain, Belgium, Germany, UK, France and The Netherlands). Btw. none of them was interested in averages, only in best single times. Anyone is free to visit all competitions (they should be open to the public). So you can always enjoy the atmosphere and meet our friends. If there is enough people gathering, then why not have an official competition in parallel? We could organise an official open competition in the evening during Euro 2006... The fact that you cannot win the big prizes should not be a problem. Have fun, Ron

I made it through that whole post, not being very impressed Ron, but that last line proves it all. We just wanna set our records, then run away. The trophies and big prizes are a bonus, ok, I know 5,000 american bux is a good deal, but hey, if Everyone on the face of the planet knows my name and face, thats worth a hell of a lot more than 5,000 american bux...Any Harry Potter Fans: The winner of the cup will achieve Eternal Glory...(oh, and 1000 gold galleons Craig

You know, to be honest, I really haven't been keeping track of progress of unofficial world records, so I had no idea that you'd be so dominant in so many events. I think it may have been slightly unfair for you to take away trophies from so many American competitors, but fortunately at this competition, there was no prize money. As for hosting a seperate competition, that was originally my idea. We were going to put all of the "international" competitors in a seperate pool so that we were essentially running two competitions at the same time. The idea is to simulate the one competition atmosphere, but at the same time allow everyone to compete. As Stefan said, I'd be such a shame that someone who has a different nationality can't compete even if they're in the right place at the right time. Poor Shelley is going to be in Europe during the time of the European championships. (It turns out, she probably has orientation at University of College London during the championships anyway, but wouldn't it be fun to have her go?) Even if the competition is "open" in the sense that anyone can go and help out and watch, not everyone is Bob Burton. The justification for spending money is greatly diminished when you can't compete.

i was just thinking couldn't you technicaly compete at even closed competitions even if you dont live there. I thought i read somthing in the rues that said you could represent a country you have a passport for(i can't find it right now so correct me if i am wrong) but i guess the downside woudl be you have to represent a different country not your own.

Tyson, if you had told me I couldn't technically "Win" anything, I wouldn't have cared, but then again, you wouldn't have had enough people in some events Craig

[quote="Tyson":3ipps74z]I think it may have been slightly unfair for you to take away trophies from so many American competitors, but fortunately at this competition, there was no prize money.[/quote:3ipps74z] "Take away" trophies??? Does that mean they already had them and Craig walked by and grabbed them? And how is it "unfair" if someone who's better gets awarded more?

[quote="StefanPochmann":32aq8l58]And how is it "unfair" if someone who's better gets awarded more?[/quote:32aq8l58] Ok, I realize now that there are cases where even I would call it "unfair". Example: a competition for 4-year-olds won by an adult because of his clear physical (and maybe other) superiority. Your issue seems to be about Craig being from Canada and not USA. Are you suggesting some general superiority of Canadians over Americans?

Bumping this for 2008 discussions. If the WCA doesn't want to get rid of closed competitions completely, would it be possible to discourage people from holding them, and perhaps phasing them out next year?

I will speak of the french national competition. It's a closed competition, only for french people. I think it will remain like that because the competition is organized by Winning Moves France. They put a lot of money into this (the hotel where the competition stand, every people below 40 sec in average get their trip payed) and maybe they don't want foreign people to be involved in this because they sell cubes in France only. Of course, they can give prizes and money for french people only, and still allow everyone to participate, and we could end up with a situation where the winner is not a french guy (remember, Gilles VDP ?) Clément

[quote="Clement Gallet":368f7ssi] They put a lot of money into this (the hotel where the competition stand, every people below 40 sec in average get their trip payed) and maybe they don't want foreign people to be involved in this because they sell cubes in France only. [/quote:368f7ssi] No one is forcing them to pay for anyone. [quote="Clement Gallet":368f7ssi] maybe they don't want foreign people to be involved in this because they sell cubes in France only. [/quote:368f7ssi] If a German citizen lives in France, don't they buy from Winning Moves France? [quote="Clement Gallet":368f7ssi] Of course, they can give prizes and money for french people only, and still allow everyone to participate, and we could end up with a situation where the winner is not a french guy (remember, Gilles VDP ?) [/quote:368f7ssi] I don't see the point why the winner _must_ be a French person. If they're not the fastest, they're not the fastest. That's what winning a competition means. They can still determine the fastest French person, they just might realize that he's not faster than some German.

Hmmm... That's not very complicated to understand : That's quite logical. There is a competition to determine the best " ... " (in this case French) cubist. If there is a German cubist best than the best french, that's not a problem, because the aim of the competition is to choose the best French. I think that closed competitions are something good, it also allows people who never win anything to win a competition, and it gives a special feeling during a competition. Winning French championnships is NOT as winning French open, Lyon open or both of them. It has something special, to be the best cubist in his country. There are more and more competition... But This one has a special sense. Don't kill it.

So, out of curiosity, for those of you that support closed competitions, would you be willing to forfeit the right to compete in other country's open competitions if you compete in a closed competition? For example, if you compete in the French Closed, then for the next X months, you can't compete in the German Open, Dutch Open, UK Open, etc....but could compete in the Open's or Close's held in France. Not that I'm suggesting that, but I'm just curious what people's response is. If you think it's fair that people can't compete in your competition, but you wouldn't like it if you were restricted from competing in other's.

[quote="BryanLogan":36h7fi14][quote="Clement Gallet":36h7fi14] Of course, they can give prizes and money for french people only, and still allow everyone to participate, and we could end up with a situation where the winner is not a french guy (remember, Gilles VDP ?) [/quote:36h7fi14] I don't see the point why the winner _must_ be a French person. If they're not the fastest, they're not the fastest. That's what winning a competition means. They can still determine the fastest French person, they just might realize that he's not faster than some German.[/quote:36h7fi14] Please, read my sentence again. I was not saying that the winner must be a french person. I wasn't clear enough, the competition can still be a french national championship with awardings to french people, and allows others to compete. I'm not for closed competitions, but I just descibe how I see the situation in France. Clément

[quote="Clement Gallet":kt68tl6n] I wasn't clear enough, the competition can still be a french national championship with awardings to french people, and allows others to compete. [/quote:kt68tl6n] OK. I made the same statement in the general 2008 changes thread. The way you stated your original statement led me to believe that having a non-French winner would be bad. I think it's just a language barrier thing. But yes, I agree that you can restrict awards, but still allow others to compete is a good compromise.