Removing 5x5x5 BLD?

qqwref (2009-02-18 08:19:50 +0000)
After seeing a few people compete in 5x5 BLD at the EPGY Stanford Winter 2009 (note that the results are not listed since all competitors got a DNF and decided there was no point in reporting that), I've thought about the event a bit, and I think it should eventually be removed from the list of official events. Here are my reasons: - This event is very difficult to get a success at, and unpopular as well. Only 8 people have succeeded in this event in the history of the WCA, which is much fewer than all of the other events, and even fewer than some of the unofficial events which have been turned down due to lack of popularity. I don't know the number of people who have ever attempted 5x5 BLD in competition, but I would not be at all surprised if this is also the lowest of all official events. Pochmann's best time, which is more than 10 times as long as the WR, is still on the top 10, which tells me that this event is not at all competitive and that it won't be missed much if it becomes unofficial only. - Since we have 4x4xBLD, 5x5 BLD is redundant. By this I mean that if someone is good at one event they will be good at the other. You might say "this is just as true for 4x4 and 5x5 speed", but it isn't - check out Andy Tsao who is top 10 at 4x4 and not even top 50 at 5x5, and alternatively Yueh-Lin Tsai who is top 10 at 5x5 and not even top 50 at 4x4. Now look at the 4x4 BLD ranks for the 5x5 BLD competitors (all except Pochmann since he has never even attempted 4x4 BLD in competition): for 5x5 BLD competitors ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, their 4x4 BLD ranks are 2, 3, 5, 9, 12, 15, 18. These numbers increase monotonically and what this tells me is that 4x4 BLD speed is a very good predictor of 5x5 BLD speed and vice versa. As far as I can tell they really do seem to gauge the same skill (that is, memorizing lots of information, and then solving virtually all of the pieces with only commutators), and we don't need to have two separate events if being good at one automatically makes you good at the other. - This is the longest event except for multiple BLD. I feel multiple BLD is a bit more worthy of taking 30+ minutes because it is popular and because it is much more accessible (you don't have to be a complete expert to get a multiple BLD "success", or even to get a 2/2). The large amount of time combined with the extremely low success rate makes me feel that holding this event at a competition is a waste of time - it doesn't feel right to hold an event where maybe one out of four or five competitors will even get a success, and I definitely wouldn't hold it at a competition I was organizing. Even at the 2008 US Nationals competition, 6 people competed in 5x5 BLD, but only one person succeeded (and thus won). With so many people spending 30 minutes or more solving and then having nothing to show for it, I don't see this event as very fun or exciting, and the winner seems more based on luck than skill. So in summary, 5x5 BLD is unpopular (both considering the number of people who try the event, and the number of people who have succeeded), redundant (4x4 BLD skill and 5x5 BLD skill are directly correlated), and very long (and thus probably not worth holding at all but the longest, most important competitions). I think that because of this, 5x5 BLD has less of a reason to be an official event than many of the existing unofficial events, and that therefore it should be removed from the official event list.
StefanPochmann (2009-02-18 10:48:01 +0000)
[quote="qqwref":c3ac4bzv]I don't know the number of people who have ever attempted 5x5 BLD in competition[/quote:c3ac4bzv] 29 plus the unreported ones. [quote="qqwref":c3ac4bzv]I would not be at all surprised if this is also the lowest of all official events.[/quote:c3ac4bzv] 6x6x6 has fewer (16). Yeah I know it's new. [quote="qqwref":c3ac4bzv]- Since we have 4x4xBLD, 5x5 BLD is redundant. By this I mean that if someone is good at one event they will be good at the other. You might say "this is just as true for 4x4 and 5x5 speed", but it isn't[/quote:c3ac4bzv] No, I say "this is just as true for [b:c3ac4bzv]6x6[/b:c3ac4bzv] and [b:c3ac4bzv]7x7[/b:c3ac4bzv] speed". So please let's get rid of 7x7 speed. [quote="qqwref":c3ac4bzv]- This is the longest event except for multiple BLD.[/quote:c3ac4bzv] And fewest moves. Plus scrambling and blindsolving one 5x5 can be done faster than scrambling and speedsolving three 7x7s. So again, please let's get rid of 7x7 speed. No, of course I don't want 7x7 speed removed. But neither the 5x5 blind. If it's too long for a competition, simply don't offer it or have a let's say 20 or 30 minutes time limit.
Mike Hughey (2009-02-18 17:58:41 +0000)
[quote="qqwref":3anh0oq2] - This event is very difficult to get a success at, and unpopular as well.[/quote:3anh0oq2] It is true that it is unpopular. It is not true that it is very difficult to get a success at. The reason so few people are getting successes is because it is unpopular. If people would practice as much as Chris, Istvan, and I have, they would have similar records (we're all over 50% accurate on 5x5x5 BLD in competition; I'm more accurate at 5x5x5 BLD than I am at 4x4x4 BLD or even 3x3x3 BLD). (And note that I probably still have not practiced 5x5x5 BLD as much as you have practiced bigcubes for speed!) Also, 4x4x4 BLD was very unpopular just a year and a half ago; now it's not. I believe as speeds continue to improve, 5x5x5 BLD will become more popular. I think it's possible that you're suggesting removing it just as it's about to take off in popularity. We have 4 people preregistered to try it at the Ohio Open already, out of 30 total competitors, and I'm quite positive every one of them is capable of potentially getting a successful solve. [quote="qqwref":3anh0oq2] - Since we have 4x4xBLD, 5x5 BLD is redundant. By this I mean that if someone is good at one event they will be good at the other.[/quote:3anh0oq2] Again, I think the problem here is the current lack of popularity. There just isn't enough data. But I am definitely much better at 5x5x5 BLD than I am at 4x4x4 BLD, relative to other competitors. I'm almost world-class at 5x5x5 BLD, but I can barely stackmat a 4x4x4 for some reason. And I agree with Stefan that there is no less difference between 4x4x4 BLD and 5x5x5 BLD than there is between 6x6x6 and 7x7x7. So if we should get rid of 5x5x5 BLD because of redundancy, it's certainly equally true about 7x7x7. Obviously, I hope we keep 5x5x5 BLD. Of all the events, it's the event I'm best at. :) And I don't see what it hurts to keep it.
anders (2009-02-18 18:30:22 +0000)
@qqwref In the thread viewtopic.php?f=4&t=482 , you argue quite strongly AGAINST retiring the 5x5x5 blindfolded event. What made you change your mind? /Anders
Pedro_S (2009-02-19 21:53:40 +0000)
agreed with Stefan 6x6x6 and 7x7x7 require the same skill as 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 which is, grouping a bunch of center pieces, grouping a bunch of edge pieces, solve as a 3x3x3 (maybe with parity(ies)) so let's get rid of both of them "oh, but they have new types of center pieces...the "oblique" ones, or whatever the name is..." yeah, but the 5x5 has a different type of piece than the 4x4...the +centers [quote:2vko4l0s] ...which tells me that this event is not at all competitive and that it won't be missed much if it becomes unofficial only.[/quote:2vko4l0s] How can you know that? did you ever try it? what about people who spend valuable hours of their lives to practice for that event? why do they deserve any less "credit" or "honor" than people like you who practice the big cubes? as Stefan said, no need to get rid of anything...you don't like an event? don't have people interested? don't hold it at your competition...easy like that. No one has to suffer :)