Issue: Time Corrections

Lucas (2009-02-17 10:45:30 +0000)
There was an issue at EPGY 2009, and I think it's worth discussing. Edward Lin's first 2x2x2 solve fell misaligned. The judge, Brandan Tobin, gave him a +2, and Edward signed (actually, initialed) the paper. Later, Edward's mom came up to me. She had clear video evidence that the alignment was actually only about 35-40 degrees. She was requesting it to be changed, because her son really really wanted to be first, and she claimed it would not be fair from him. (The results were projected live, so everyone could check the rankings. Removing the +2 would move Edward into 1st place.) (Also, note that the correction would not have been fair to the first-place winner.) After Edward's mom showed the video to Brandan, he apparently admitted he was wrong about the +2, and I was considering changing it. However, I eventually asked him (Brandan) again, and I'm pretty sure the situation was like this (as it looks like on the video, although it doesn't go past Brandan's inspection.): The cube fell. Brandan was unsure about the +2, but after inspecting it, he decided he would give a +2. Edward was a bit doubtful, but said "okay" and signed it. This has even happened to me personally, where the cube fell at 45 degrees, and I didn't mind letting the judge give me a +2, even if it was disputable. However, this only became significant because it determined 1st place. Eventually, I told Edward and his mom that I was sorry, but that I could not change the time. We're not supposed to take video evidence, and Edward had signed the time (which is the entire point of scorecard signatures, A7d). If he had wanted to dispute the time, he should have called the main judge (A6h). Edward didn't seem to care as much as his mom. I didn't give him any consolation prize, but I encouraged him to keep practicing. Was this the right choice? After a small chat with Jeremy, I think I've decided that my opinion is to try be as accurate as possible -allowing corrections- without allowing the system to be manipulated. Had Edward not been on the podium (or maybe even been 3rd->2nd), I might have changed it, but the correction was very biased, and essentially my personal decision whether to reassign first place. I think I made the more justifiable decision, but I'm concerned that the recorded results are technically incorrect.
StefanPochmann (2009-02-17 14:42:12 +0000)
He officially accepted the +2, that's really what matters. He simply shouldn't have done that. How can be be able to win that event and not know one of its more important rules? The aftermath is putting you in an awkward position, which is not exactly nice of her. I guess you could've asked Matthew (the winner) whether it would be ok for him to have Edward's result corrected, as he was the only one who would've been "hurt" by that. But then you would've put *him* in an awkward position, and that wouldn't be nice, either. When you officially accept the result by signing it, it's final. (Well, except if Matthew had noticed the mistake and asked it to be corrected, that's the one case I can imagine where it ought to be changed) [quote="Lucas":31lyf7tz]I'm concerned that the recorded results are technically incorrect.[/quote:31lyf7tz] According to Edward himself, they're officially correct.
Bob (2009-02-17 14:46:55 +0000)
If he thought there was ANY chance of the it not being a +2 (and cared if it was not +2), then he should have requested a ruling from the main judge first. Once you agree to the time on the paper, you can't change your mind. You made the right call and had you changed it, you would have made the wrong one.
cubetalk (2009-02-17 22:11:58 +0000)
About the video evidence issue, I believe that if a person has evidence of a disputed conflict before the signing of the paper, then any evidence such as that should be acceptable
BryanLogan (2009-02-17 22:21:48 +0000)
[quote="cubetalk":25pto19w]About the video evidence issue, I believe that if a person has evidence of a disputed conflict before the signing of the paper, then any evidence such as that should be acceptable[/quote:25pto19w] Actually, there's better evidence for the disputed conflict. It's the cube that's sitting there turned.
Pedro_S (2009-02-17 23:07:56 +0000)
I think you did the right thing, Lucas if he signed the sheet, he agreed with the penalty I had a similar situation at Minas Open 2008, also with 2x2x2 after the results were up, Renan sent me the video with all his 2x2x2 solves...4 times matched with the official results but one didn't...the display showed a time and the score sheet showed another one (higher). So his average would be a little lower, not affecting any rankings or what... I know cubers are supposed to check the time written down, but we (yeah, me included) often forget it...so I asked Ron and he changed the time but I agree that with penalties, where you have to sign/mark/initial the sheet, there can be no dispute after
Jorge Zuñiga (2009-02-18 04:58:54 +0000)
Something like this happened at Mexican Open 2008. This guy had a 1:30.xy in the competiton sheet, but he showed me a video were the time was 1:03.xy. So I asked Adam, and he told me that if he signed the sheet he accpetde the time and nothing could be done. So I think you did the rigth thing.
anders (2009-02-18 18:33:24 +0000)
I think you made the right decision, Lucas. I would have made the same. /Anders
Edward_Lin (2009-05-17 06:19:03 +0000)
this is obviously the wrong answer. Edward shouldn't have gotten a +2.
Tim (2009-05-17 16:31:39 +0000)
[quote="Edward_Lin":ha0wpg1u]this is obviously the wrong answer. Edward shouldn't have gotten a +2.[/quote:ha0wpg1u] Then why did Edward sign the paper saying that the +2 was correct?
Edward_Lin (2009-05-17 20:21:37 +0000)
[quote="Tim":2f2jqjva][quote="Edward_Lin":2f2jqjva]this is obviously the wrong answer. Edward shouldn't have gotten a +2.[/quote:2f2jqjva] Then why did Edward sign the paper saying that the +2 was correct?[/quote:2f2jqjva] true, but in order to know what really happened we must ask edward himself
BryanLogan (2009-05-17 20:29:19 +0000)
[quote="Edward_Lin":ev2f5uho][quote="Tim":ev2f5uho][quote="Edward_Lin":ev2f5uho]this is obviously the wrong answer. Edward shouldn't have gotten a +2.[/quote:ev2f5uho] Then why did Edward sign the paper saying that the +2 was correct?[/quote:ev2f5uho] true, but in order to know what really happened we must ask edward himself[/quote:ev2f5uho] So just post your side of the story.
Edward_Lin (2009-05-17 23:02:39 +0000)
well.....at the time of this comp. i didn't know we can dispute it out with the main judge, but now i know. It also doesn't really matter anymore cause i am faster now
Tim (2009-05-19 02:00:56 +0000)
So you're arguing that you should be allowed your time correction since you didn't read the rules. That's persuasive.
Edward_Lin (2009-05-19 04:45:20 +0000)
[quote="Tim":2e6jxbb3]So you're arguing that you should be allowed your time correction since you didn't read the rules. That's persuasive.[/quote:2e6jxbb3] no i meant that i don't really care anymore because i am faster now
Bob (2009-05-29 16:55:07 +0000)
[quote="Edward_Lin":28235qz3][quote="Tim":28235qz3]So you're arguing that you should be allowed your time correction since you didn't read the rules. That's persuasive.[/quote:28235qz3] no i meant that i don't really care anymore because i am faster now[/quote:28235qz3] If you don't care, why bring it up more than 3 months later?
Edward_Lin (2009-05-30 00:59:36 +0000)
[quote="Bob":31h4zpni][quote="Edward_Lin":31h4zpni][quote="Tim":31h4zpni]So you're arguing that you should be allowed your time correction since you didn't read the rules. That's persuasive.[/quote:31h4zpni] no i meant that i don't really care anymore because i am faster now[/quote:31h4zpni] If you don't care, why bring it up more than 3 months later?[/quote:31h4zpni] i did care but now that i got faster i can probably beat that avg. in another comp. i brought it back up probably cause i was bored
Shelley (2009-06-02 08:17:36 +0000)
Situations like this are exactly why video evidence is not considered in rulings. Lucas, you did the right thing. When the competitor signs the score sheet, it indicates that he has accepted the time as recorded.
Jason (2009-06-04 08:40:57 +0000)
I thought there was a whole dark blind-folded episode that was specifically based on video evidence!
BryanLogan (2009-06-04 12:29:34 +0000)
[quote="Jason":pjz0v9pz]I thought there was a whole dark blind-folded episode that was specifically based on video evidence![/quote:pjz0v9pz][ [quote="11f":pjz0v9pz] 11f) The [b:pjz0v9pz]main judge and WCA delegate[/b:pjz0v9pz] must not support their decisions with video or photograph analysis. [/quote:pjz0v9pz] The WCA Board is not included in this rule.