as most know, i think we should stop closed competitions. if a prize or title is limited to a certain group, that's ok (i guess) but to deny someone that shows up (or maybe lives there, but isn't a citizen) does not help our sport or more people to have more fun. i dont' know if we need another thread to discuss this, but there is no valid reason why anyone should be disallowed the opportunity to compete at any competition, except for reasons of ego or tradition, neither of which have any foundation in logic.

Thanks for your feedback. [quote:1654tvvd]i think we should stop closed competitions.[/quote:1654tvvd] I agree with you, except that in some countries we are still not strong enough against sponsors. For 2009 I reduced 8c to only specific nationalities. I will always encourage open competitions. It is acceptable to give no or limited prizes to persons with specific nationalities (like in Euro 2008). Ron

[quote="Ron":3dvbocm4] [quote:3dvbocm4]i think we should stop closed competitions.[/quote:3dvbocm4] I agree with you, except that in some countries we are still not strong enough against sponsors. [/quote:3dvbocm4] Do you think if they had a choice between an open competition and no competition that they would go with no competition? I think they do closed because it's an option. What about other "restrictions" for closed competitions to discourage them?

[quote:3sowqil8]I think they do closed because it's an option.[/quote:3sowqil8] No, I do not think so. It is much more complicated than that. Anyway, I do not like the idea that enforcing open competitions would actually prevent any single competition.

For the French national championship, the sponsor, Winning Moves, doesn't care if the competition is official. So they would keep the competition closed if we enforce openness for official competitions.

i think its more important to me that everyone is included and able to participate than to appease some sponsor. having no prizes and everyone compete is better than whoever putting up prize money, but using it to pigeon-hole us into doing things that aren't best for the competition. i just don't see the fairness or the validity of not allowing someone to compete if they happen to be in the area, or live someplace they aren't a citizen of, national titles are completely able to be handed out with a wide spectrum of competitors. everyone that threw a temper tantrum over euro 2008, not one foreign competitor even showed up i believe, so its obvious this would affect the attendance very little, it would just ensure on those special cases of someone visiting from out of the area and/or someone living in a country/region with citizenship someplace else. the best penalty for a closed competition is that those times wouldn't count. if no one participated in an event because their times wouldn't count, it would quickly change the mind of the sponsor to ask for such stupid limitations on competitors. also if someone is sad enough to not have an event because someone with other citizenship shows up, they shouldn't be running a competition imho anyway. what good reasons are there to still allow closed competitions, i don't see it as more complicated than anything that's been said? sponsors should not have a say, and our creed is more fun for more people at more competitions, closing them off is a clear abandonment of these ideas.

I am totally against removing closed competitions. And I am sure I am not alone (I don't know a french who is for...). If sponsors have not exist, I would not have participated to World Championnship 2005 and would probably already have stopped cubing since many years. Look at this page : http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/res ... ermany2008 It has no sense ! German champion is 6th... Such a rule forbids german competitors to participate to a final that they deserve. To my mind, WCA should at least show the german ranking of the German Nationals, and do 2 different rankings. One for Germans, one for others (or both), because i find it is a lack of respect to Germany and german cubers. This is the only competition where you can finish 7th in the first round and not being in the final with 12 competitors, and finish 16th in the first round and participating to this final. Can you find it logical ? Is it really better to allow someone to come and to tell him after "You can not qualify to the final because you're not German" ? Or "the cup and the money are not for you because you are not German" ? Competitor, as soon as he competes, must have the same rights as the others. Anyway, rxdeath, I know your opinion about that, and you know mine.

[quote="Edouard Chambon":22zxszw4]This is the only competition where you can finish 7th in the first round and not being in the final with 12 competitors, and finish 16th in the first round and participating to this final. Can you find it logical ?[/quote:22zxszw4] That's indeed odd, I completely agree. Was this enforced by the organizers, or did some non-Germans voluntarily step aside so more Germans could enter the final? I don't see anything about this on the competition page. Whatever the reason, getting rid of "national championships" would get rid of it.

i appreciate your comment edouard, but i'm really looking for valid logical reasoning as to why it's better to have closed competitions. personal vanity stuff isn't a concern to me, and i dare say if you wouldn't compete without a sponsor then that is your loss not ours. cubing isn't about sponsors or winning money, its about getting as many people as possible together and have a fun time solving the cube. if you can't compete without prizes then i say you have lost the fundamental reason behind cubing. always open rule would make it so that as many people as are willing to get to the competition get a chance to have fun and see other cubers while posting official times. the german thing is far beyond my control, but i say whoever is best gets to go on. this makes it easy and if some germans (or whatever nationality) don't make it, then they will have to try harder next year. if ron wants to make a special page to show just a particular nationality's standing then that is up to him, but i say its just for personal vanity and is a complete waste of time. anyone in favor of closed competitions, please present a fact-based logical argument about how it will make our sport better to have closed competitions, especially pointing out what you can have at a closed competition that isn't available at an open one.

Ok, I am sorry, I am very bad to write something in english because I am french but I have to reply ! First, did you read correctly the result of German Open ? It just has no sense, I can't understand why a person was able to participate at the final and why an other wasn't when I read the results... If it was just the 14 best cubers in the final, ok, but here it's a mix of the best cubers in general and the best german cubers Then, you say : "if you can't compete without prizes then i say you have lost the fundamental reason behind cubing" You didn't understand what Edouard says. He doesn't want to have a prize at each competition he participates, he says if there were no sponsors for pay the trip to go at World Championship he couldn't go on. In the future it will be the same, not for "M. Edouard Chambon" but for all the french cubers, except a few ones. We aren't some people who whant close competition because we don't like stanger or I don't know what else you have imagine. The point is the sponsor want a close competition. We can : - refuse that this competition count for WCA results. So, winners just keep the prizes for them, then they decide if they use it for go at WC or not, and on this case the other cubers in addition of their non participation at the WC couldn't have any scores on the official WCA results. Maybe instead of met the more passionate and more fun french cubers, you will met richest ones. - just stay like now, we make more and more open competition during the rest of the year and of course everyone is welcome ! We all want have more fun with more people. PS : Oh ! I forget to precise that the french championship his the only competition most french cubers did because the sponsor refund (pay back ?) the trip. And please, stop to talk about "ego" or stuffs like this, this is not the problem.

[quote="Mario":2557pkdv]he says if there were no sponsors for pay the trip to go at World Championship he couldn't go on. [/quote:2557pkdv] Everyone here agrees that you can restrict prizes, it's no problem. [quote="Mario":2557pkdv]The point is the sponsor want a close competition.[/quote:2557pkdv] So? People want lots of things. Didn't Seventowns want to restrict brands in certain competitions, but they backed off of that. [quote="Mario":2557pkdv] - refuse that this competition count for WCA results. So, winners just keep the prizes for them, then they decide if they use it for go at WC or not, and on this case the other cubers in addition of their non participation at the WC couldn't have any scores on the official WCA results. [/quote:2557pkdv] That sounds fair. All non-French aren't allowed to have results entered into the WCA results for the closed competition. [quote="Mario":2557pkdv] I forget to precise that the french championship his the only competition most french cubers did because the sponsor refund (pay back ?) the trip. [/quote:2557pkdv] Once again, the sponsor would still be able to do this. If a non-French person wants to go, then they have to pay for themselves, but they can still go. As for the German 2008, it seems like that clearly violated 9g2. 9g2) Whether a competitor proceeds to next phase of a combined round, must be decided on position (best x competitors) or on result (all competitors with a best result under x).

mario yes i did read the results of the german competition, but that isn't the debate. just because one open tournament was run poorly doesn't mean they aren't the best idea. also, i understood edouard just fine, however i disagree. if anyone chooses not to come because they can't get sponsored then so be it. others shouldn't have to suffer and not compete because someone wants a free trip. lots of people can't afford to go to tournaments, its probably much more common (due to the larger distances involved) here in the US, and if someone misses out on a championship or a regular tournament, tough luck. Sponsors shouldn't have the final say in what we do, we don't really need their support, although it' welcome when it comes with no strings attached. a perfect example is the rubiks-only rule that was lifted when cubers stood up in protest against it. sponsors should do what we say, not the other way around, and if they refuse to help us, then it is their loss. we never needed them before and don't need them now. i say the passionate/fun cubers you refer to will make the trip even if someone else is not willing to pay for it, so i say i would still meet them and only the ones that are unable or unwilling to go won't attend, just as it works everywhere else. ego is a big factor here, that's why i mention it. it seems many of the closed supporters want what is best for a small group of people, not the entire community. getting your trip paid for is not and should not be a concern for the wca when making regulations. nothing i have read answers the question of why an closed tournament should be allowed and/or what does a closed competition give that you can't also get from an open one? will any closed supporter please address that point since its the actual issue at hand?

Apparently my english is more bad that I was thinking... It's too bad, I am sure you understand the problem if I could talk in english as in french. You say "if anyone chooses not to come because they can't get sponsored then so be it" but "choose" is not the good word. I am sure you won't met the cubers I mentioned in USA or in a WC in Asia because they just don't have money to go there. And one other things, because I think you don't understad, I am against closed competition, I just want to explain why it's a problem to forbide them for the french cubers.

[quote="BryanLogan":2mlx3tby][quote="Mario":2mlx3tby]he says if there were no sponsors for pay the trip to go at World Championship he couldn't go on. [/quote:2mlx3tby] Everyone here agrees that you can restrict prizes, it's no problem.[/quote:2mlx3tby] I don't agree with this. Where is the fairness between competitors ? Just look at the results, and tell me how finishing 12th is better than 7th ? Where are we going ? Next time Mr X, well known and very fast cuber DNF twice in the first round and goes to the next round just because he is Mr X, very well known ? Or because he is the organizer ? Or because he is from the right town ? I'm not defending the sponsors. But we should not see them as the devil like "they want us to make something that we does not want". They have interests in what they are doing, we have interests too. Rxdeath, I find your argues as bad (and probably more) as you find ours. We are just different. So respect our opinion and do not try to forbid things. Isn't that some egoïsm ?

[quote="Edouard Chambon":1ct0td9n][quote="BryanLogan":1ct0td9n][quote="Mario":1ct0td9n]he says if there were no sponsors for pay the trip to go at World Championship he couldn't go on. [/quote:1ct0td9n] Everyone here agrees that you can restrict prizes, it's no problem.[/quote:1ct0td9n] I don't agree with this. Where is the fairness between competitors ? Just look at the results, and tell me how finishing 12th is better than 7th ? Where are we going ? Next time Mr X, well known and very fast cuber DNF twice in the first round and goes to the next round just because he is Mr X, very well known ? Or because he is the organizer ? Or because he is from the right town ? [/quote:1ct0td9n] You're completely missing the point. Prizes is one thing, advancement to the next round is another. Advancement should always be done by the rule specified in 9g2. Giving of prizes can be done by the sponsor's criteria. If only 2 Germans made it to the final, then give them first and second and find the German that did the third best in the semi-finals and give him third.

I think you don't understand the situation in France. Winning Moves is not just a sponsor but also the organiser of the French National. Let say we forbid closed competitions. They will say : "We don't care at all, we will organise it as usual, and forbid non-french cubers". The consequence will be that this competition won't be official. So at the end we will have one less official competition. Is this what you want ? Maybe you will think that we should boycott this competition. But honestly, we all know that it won't work at all, many competitors will still go because there are prices.

i think its funny how some believe i don't understand what you are saying because of a language barrier. i completely understand, i just also completely disagree. if someone really wants to go, they can probably make it happen. if someone misses out because they can't afford it, i don't care. i can't afford to go to many competitions, just like many other cubers, and the french cubers are not more special than everyone else. the advancement issue is easy to handle we do it in the u.s. every year, that format works just fine. i understand you disagree with me edouard, but you have yet to give a good reason why. you just say you disagree a lot, but have nothing to back your statement up. you say my arguments are bad, but give no reason why, except 'you don't like them'. i don't think its called ego when it benefits everyone else, not just myself or a small group of people. so far everyone speaking on the closed side isn't really addressing the point. what can you have a closed competition that isn't also possible at an open one? 'someone paying for my trip' is not a valid answer because no one should have to miss out because someone wants a free ride. i understand how involved winning moves was at the french nationals, but winning moves also isn't a concern, organize your own nationals. company sponsorships aren't a necessity for cubing tournaments to happen. if cubers say 'no closed competitions' then it will happen, just like the none-rubiks rule at worlds that was changed. i'm much more concerned that anyone interested can compete anywhere. i'm all about cubing getting more popular, but it should be a natural growth, not something messed with and changed because of money. honestly the easiest way to settle this is just have registered members vote. anyone who was registered before the topic came up can vote, and if more of the cubing population feels closed tournaments are ok, then i'll withdraw my argument. i'm trying to make is so if anyone, anywhere is close to a competition, they can go and compete regardless of some silly nationality or division, and don't see how that can be a bad thing at all.

[quote="Clement Gallet":1sbb853h]I think you don't understand the situation in France. Winning Moves is not just a sponsor but also the organiser of the French National. Let say we forbid closed competitions. They will say : "We don't care at all, we will organise it as usual, and forbid non-french cubers". The consequence will be that this competition won't be official. So at the end we will have one less official competition. Is this what you want ? Maybe you will think that we should boycott this competition. But honestly, we all know that it won't work at all, many competitors will still go because there are prices.[/quote:1sbb853h] Yes, it could possibly be one less official contest, but most of the world wasn't allowed to compete in it in the first place. <SARCASM>I'm a sponsor and organizer of competitions. In fact, I organized twice as many competitions as Winning Moves France last year, so perhaps my opinion should be held to twice that of Winning Moves France. </SARCASM>

[quote="rxdeath":bq72thpk]i understand how involved winning moves was at the french nationals, but winning moves also isn't a concern, organize your own[/quote:bq72thpk] That's exactly what we have done : http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/res ... chopen2009 So the French Nationals, aka the competition organised by WM, is a competition that you won't be allowed to participate, in all cases, because official or not, it will be closed. [quote="BryanLogan":bq72thpk]Yes, it could possibly be one less official contest, but most of the world wasn't allowed to compete in it in the first place.[/quote:bq72thpk] Exactly, so it's either you can't participate and I can, or we both can't participate. What do you prefer ?

[quote="Clement Gallet":su6b8h2f]Exactly, so it's either you can't participate and I can, or we both can't participate. What do you prefer ?[/quote:su6b8h2f] Well, if closed competitions were banned, then there's a chance the competition would become open and I could compete. Now, if I was an American living in France, I would probably have a much stronger opinion. If you were a French citizen living in America, and we said that the French couldn't compete in any of our competitions, what would you think of closed competitions then? [quote="Mario":su6b8h2f] You didn't understand what Edouard says. He doesn't want to have a prize at each competition he participates, he says if there were no sponsors for pay the trip to go at World Championship he couldn't go on. In the future it will be the same, not for "M. Edouard Chambon" but for all the french cubers, except a few ones. [/quote:su6b8h2f] So you argument here is that we should allow closed competitions so that certain competitors are able to compete at Worlds? Because people can't afford to travel to every competition. For the non-French person living in France, you're preventing him from competing and he can't afford to travel out of France to go to a competition.

[quote="BryanLogan":277m4web]Well, if closed competitions were banned, then there's a chance the competition would become open and I could compete. Now, if I was an American living in France, I would probably have a much stronger opinion. If you were a French citizen living in America, and we said that the French couldn't compete in any of our competitions, what would you think of closed competitions then?[/quote:277m4web] There is no chance *in France* that the competition would become open. There are some foreign cubers that live in France, and I didn't heard them complaining. I guess it's because it's only one small and bad competition, and there are many other much better competitions in France and Europe.

i would rather this competition doesn't happen than to segregate people out. if you choose to have your silly closed competition, then hopefully the results won't count, and i'm sure if/when someone breaks a wr at a closed competition they will be upset because it will not (and should not ) count. seems much easier just to let anyone compete as pretty much everywhere else does. also, this isn't about the french cubers, its about all closed competitions and how they are unfair to the rest of the cubing community, the scrambles will not be repeated at other competitions and the community deserves a shot at those scrambles as well. despite your little rant, i still haven't seen one ounce of what a real argument for closed competitions would be. maybe i should explain how to debate? i have made my points clear, and am expecting a counter point to my argument: closed competitions are unfair because they segregate the community and don't allow everyone interested the same opportunity. please counter this point main point with a real argument, and if no one has one, then its obvious closed tournaments should be not allowed under wca guidelines, with a penalty of no results counting in the official database.

[quote="Clement Gallet":3bl68xb0]it's because it's only one small and bad competition, and there are many other much better competitions in France and Europe.[/quote:3bl68xb0] So no real loss if it's not held? If we remove the rule now, then we'd prevent this sort of "Closed or none" competition from happening again in a different region. And again, your argument seems to go back to "It's what the sponsor wants." If some sponsor said, "Well, we want to promote the 3x3x3, so we want to have 8 rounds of it." Would you want that to be allowed? By your logic, I would think yes, since it's what the sponsor wants, and besides, if you're not competing in the competition anyways, it doesn't matter what they do.

I said the reasons : We are different. And for us it is important to have a national championship. Can you understand that ? You will tell me : "Yes, ok, but why close the competition ?" And I answer, what I already said : First, it's a matter of logic. I don't want to see a national championnship with the champion being eliminated after the first round. It has no sense. Second, it's a matter of honor for this country. Third, do you prefer that I give you a chocolate that I forbid you to eat because you are american or that I don't give you anything ? That's exactly the same with having prizes but not for the bests. Fourth, if a competitor lives close to the competition, he can go. He just can not compete. Jason, an english friend living in France understands that well, and does not find it bad at all (what he told me). And now, what are your reasons ? "I don't want to segregate people" ? But letting them coming and competing and giving prizes to people who finished after, is it really better ? As you see, I also find your argues poor. If I had to choose only one competition a year, I would go to the French championnships, official or not.

[quote="Edouard Chambon":3vfca666]First, it's a matter of logic. I don't want to see a national championnship with the champion being eliminated after the first round. It has no sense.[/quote:3vfca666] If they get eliminated after the first round, they're just not that good. Besides, you can still determine the national champion after one round. [quote="Edouard Chambon":3vfca666]Second, it's a matter of honor for this country.[/quote:3vfca666] OK, maybe this is some national thing. I guess Americans just don't understand discriminating against people. [quote="Edouard Chambon":3vfca666]Third, do you prefer that I give you a chocolate that I forbid you to eat because you are american or that I don't give you anything ? That's exactly the same with having prizes but not for the bests.[/quote:3vfca666] But they still compete, and they can still be in the WCA database. Your analogy is flawed. It's like telling someone they can have ice cream, but no chocolate on top. Or they can have no ice cream at all. I'm guessing most would pick the first. [quote="Edouard Chambon":3vfca666]Fourth, if a competitor lives close to the competition, he can go. He just can not compete. [/quote:3vfca666] Fine, for clarification, when we talking about people being able to go, we mean compete and have their results also recorded. [quote="Edouard Chambon":3vfca666]Jason, an english friend living in France understands that well, and does not find it bad at all (what he told me).[/quote:3vfca666] Ahhh...a data point of one! [quote="Edouard Chambon":3vfca666] And now, what are your reasons ? "I don't want to segregate people" ? But letting them coming and competing and giving prizes to people who finished after, is it really better ? [/quote:3vfca666] Yes, it is better to let people compete and not get prizes. Not everyone is going to get a prize anyways. But you did pare down the list a bit. 1) We want more competitors. 2) It's unfair to deny someone to compete because of where they live and their citizenship. 3) By having all competitions opened, it's a level playing field for everyone. While some people will have higher travelling costs than others, everyone is allowed to compete and have access to the same scrambles. 4) Sponsors should not dictate how competitions are run. [quote="Edouard Chambon":3vfca666] If I had to choose only one competition a year, I would go to the French championnships, official or not.[/quote:3vfca666] I have a data point of one! I've heard from a French competitor that they would be fine with allowing closed competitions as long as the competitor does not compete again for one year after the closed competition.

[quote="Edouard Chambon"]I said the reasons : We are different. And for us it is important to have a national championship. Can you understand that ? You will tell me : "Yes, ok, but why close the competition ?" And I answer, what I already said : First, it's a matter of logic. I don't want to see a national championnship with the champion being eliminated after the first round. It has no sense. Second, it's a matter of honor for this country. Third, do you prefer that I give you a chocolate that I forbid you to eat because you are american or that I don't give you anything ? That's exactly the same with having prizes but not for the bests. Fourth, if a competitor lives close to the competition, he can go. He just can not compete. Jason, an english friend living in France understands that well, and does not find it bad at all (what he told me). And now, what are your reasons ? k you are not different or special, we are all just like everyone else. logic says the french champion is the highest finishing french competitor at the french championships. if someone else is faster at that competition, that doesn't take away from being the french champion unless you allow it to in your head. as far as i'm concerned prizes should go to the top finishers, not based on nationality. only nationality comes into play when recognizing the title of champion of that country, regardless of their place in the competition. also, honor has nothing to do with it, that's a null point, and has no effect on the right vs wrong of this discussion. i also find your analogy flawed, just because you guys 'want' it isn't a good enough reason to keep on doing things in this dumb way. i want everyone to eat ice cream. i know i won't convince you that closed is not as good or fair as all open competitions, so i again say we return to democracy and make/take a vote for this particular issue.

Seeing as there are only French people arguing for closed competitions, it seems that no one else cares. Thus, I conclude that if the French want a closed competition, they can form their own French Cube Association, with their own rules, and closed competitions. While this is happening, tthe World Cube Association can change the rules to only allow open competitions, and then everyone is happy!

[quote="Dene":3smmjoxs]Seeing as there are only French people arguing for closed competitions, it seems that no one else cares. Thus, I conclude that if the French want a closed competition, they can form their own French Cube Association, with their own rules, and closed competitions. While this is happening, tthe World Cube Association can change the rules to only allow open competitions, and then everyone is happy![/quote:3smmjoxs] Yes, it might only be the French cubers who argue for closed competitions [i:3smmjoxs]in this forum[/i:3smmjoxs]. But remember, the Spanish Championships was a closed competition. Furthermore, the upcoming Thai competition is also closed. What you suggest would be terrible, because the new organisation would call itself "World Cube Federation" with their own rules, their own national, regional and world championships, and the cubing community would be split. Like in boxing and chess, with unpleasant consequences. Personally, I am no big fan of closed competitions and I do not think that the French cubers are against open competitions per se, only that they have a difficult sponsor/organiser. I do not see the point in suggesting rules that will make the life difficult for French cubers and others. Instead, we should work together to convince [i:3smmjoxs]all[/i:3smmjoxs] sponsors and organisers the great benefit of having open competitions. /Anders

A separate organization would be disastrous for the majority of cubers. Imagine the cubers whose world records will not be acknowledged (though they themselves didn't choose a closed competition). If a "French Cube Association" were to be formed, and all (or most) french competitions were held under this association instead, it would effectively shut most French cubers out of the WCA. I agree that closed competitions are worse for the majority (I'd be willing to bet almost all) of cubers. But we need to work out issues like this with sponsors before we go and flat-out ban closed competitions. I'd like to hope that open competitions would be the rule at some point in the future, but let's make sure it doesn't hurt any cubers before we demand it.

[quote="Edouard Chambon":1mr6q6yj]I said the reasons : We are different. And for us it is important to have a national championship. Can you understand that ?[/quote:1mr6q6yj] I am French too and I don't care at all about having a national championship or not. Among the 10 WCA competitions I have attended so far, French Nationals 2008 was definitely not the best one. In fact it was probably the worst one.

I support closed competitions if the competition would otherwise not take place. This keeps in line with the WCA's mission statement: The goal of the World Cube Association is to have more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions. Is it not better to have a closed competition than to not have the competition take place at all?

The point of my post was to say that the French should stop crying about it, and either put up or shut up. As in, do something about it if you want a closed competition (have your own FCA) or else put up with open competitions. No competition should be closed. I agree with rxdeath on all accounts. At Bob: Even if a competition would not happen if it was open. Closing a competition is not allowing for more fun, nor more people to compete.

[quote="Bob":mo1afn0k]I support closed competitions if the competition would otherwise not take place. This keeps in line with the WCA's mission statement: The goal of the World Cube Association is to have more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions. Is it not better to have a closed competition than to not have the competition take place at all?[/quote:mo1afn0k] But how do you prevent newer area from getting into the "closed" mentality? I'm guessing if there was never closed competitions to begin with, Winning Moves France wouldn't have this attitude. If there was something to actually discourage close competitions, like restrictions of something, I think that would be a good compromise. If people truly wanted closed, they could still have them, but to have a nice competition, you would have to have it opened.

[quote="Dene":bsli3pks]At Bob: Even if a competition would not happen if it was open. Closing a competition is not allowing for more fun, nor more people to compete.[/quote:bsli3pks] If the alternative is no competition, then it is allowing for more fun (for those who are eligible) AND more people competing (if there is no competition, there are zero). Don't get me wrong; I am not in favor of closed competitions. I think all competitions should be open. However, it would be a shame if certain competitions cannot occur because they cannot be closed. [quote="BryanLogan":bsli3pks]If there was something to actually discourage close competitions, like restrictions of something, I think that would be a good compromise. If people truly wanted closed, they could still have them, but to have a nice competition, you would have to have it opened.[/quote:bsli3pks] I agree. Disallowing closed competitions may be the next step required to change the attitudes of these sponsors. Either that, or someone should be talking this mentality out of the sponsors and "opening" their minds...

[quote="BryanLogan":qyw0f688]I'm guessing if there was never closed competitions to begin with, Winning Moves France wouldn't have this attitude.[/quote:qyw0f688] Yeah, so let's forbid closed competitions in cubing [b:qyw0f688]and all other sports[/b:qyw0f688].

I would just like to say as said Anders "France is just an example. We are not alone, just alone to post in this forum." There is also a debate on the french forum. Dene : I don't really like the "follow us or shut up" that you said. Anyway, that showed me you are american. So far, this "us" is just 3 persons. Anyway I will not shut up.

[quote="BryanLogan":30lxggps]I'm guessing if there was never closed competitions to begin with, Winning Moves France wouldn't have this attitude.[/quote:30lxggps] Well...I don't think so. Moreover, the first French Nationals (2003) started before the WCA regulations were written. [quote="BryanLogan":30lxggps] If there was something to actually discourage close competitions, like restrictions of something, I think that would be a good compromise. If people truly wanted closed, they could still have them, but to have a nice competition, you would have to have it opened.[/quote:30lxggps] It would be useful for organisers that would be willing to move existing open competitions into closed competitions, but are there ? We have very few regular closed competitions now (I count two), do you think this number will increase ?

Dene is not american, he is australian... I agree that open competitions are "more fair" since they don't forbid anyone to compete... if I were travelling through Europe and had a competition close to me, but a closed one, I would of course not be happy since I can't compete, but I'd rather see lots of people having fun at the closed competition than not having fun because the competition won't happen... Say you have 30 competitors in that competition I mentioned... Situation A: The competition is closed and I can't compete -> you get 30 happy people and 1 unhappy Situation B: The competition is open and I can compete -> you get 31 happy people Situation C: The competition can't happen -> you get 31 unhappy people it's not like you're forbiding the whole world to compete when you have a closed competition...even if the competition was open, I'm sure 99% of the rest of the world wouldn't be able to/willing to travel there, just because it's open... you may benefit a couple people that happen to live or to be travelling close, but if the competition won't happen because it can't be closed, I don't think that's a good thing...

[quote="Clement Gallet":1a72b59x]It would be useful for organisers that would be willing to move existing open competitions into closed competitions, but are there ? We have very few regular closed competitions now (I count two), do you think this number will increase ?[/quote:1a72b59x] Speedcubing is still growing, and there are still many regions where competitions have yet to be held. It would be bad if these places started out as only closed and continued it. Besides, why do you have a double standard for competitions that move from open to closed and competitions that have always been closed? Closed competitions should be discouraged, regardless if they were closed before, open before, or a new altogether. [quote="Pedro_S":1a72b59x]Dene is not american, he is australian...[/quote:1a72b59x] Or New Zealand... [quote="Pedro_S":1a72b59x] Say you have 30 competitors in that competition I mentioned... Situation A: The competition is closed and I can't compete -> you get 30 happy people and 1 unhappy Situation B: The competition is open and I can compete -> you get 31 happy people Situation C: The competition can't happen -> you get 31 unhappy people [/quote:1a72b59x] But by this mentality, if an organizer says they won't hold a competition unless they can have 5 rounds of 3x3x3, you would allow them to do that.

[quote="BryanLogan":2ohzjpxk] Or New Zealand... [/quote:2ohzjpxk] yep, sorry [quote:2ohzjpxk] But by this mentality, if an organizer says they won't hold a competition unless they can have 5 rounds of 3x3x3, you would allow them to do that.[/quote:2ohzjpxk] no, I wouldn't...because that's against the regulations

[quote="Pedro_S":2pb4pqtp] Say you have 30 competitors in that competition I mentioned... Situation A: The competition is closed and I can't compete -> you get 30 happy people and 1 unhappy Situation B: The competition is open and I can compete -> you get 31 happy people Situation C: The competition can't happen -> you get 31 unhappy people [/quote:2pb4pqtp] Situation B : About 50% unhappy people if there is no national championship this year. And even more about 90% if you are talking about france.

I have been in situation A. When traveling to Netherlands for Dutch Cube Day in 2005, I was also at German Nationals 2008 but I could not compete (it was open only to those with German nationality). It was a shame I could not compete because I was at the competition, but I was able to judge and have fun. I would have liked to compete, but I was fine that I could not and I could understand why. I agree situation A is much better than situation C.

So what would people think about the idea that for a closed competition, you can only have a single round for each event? It seems like that could be something that would discourage closed competitions, but not affect them to the point where they couldn't be held anymore.

Ok so there is a situation where 30 people are happy and 1 is not. How about a closed competition in California? Just say, for the sake of it, Lucas that SF09 was closed. Already 5 people would not be allowed to compete, including Lucas himself! Of course this situation is unlikely, but the possibility is still there, and it shouldn't be.

first of all i don't appreciate the negative nationalist comment 'this shows you're american' from edouard. what a short-sided, narrow-minded terrible thing to say, i don't disrespect anyone's nationality with my arguments, and i'd appreciate an apology as well as it not happening again. if you have a problem with someone, its because they are themself, not because of their nationality (especially considering you were wrong). also, i'm sure both sides have many supporters that are not speaking in this particular thread, neither side can claim they have a majority without a vote being taken. also french champs could still happen if all comps were required to be open, you could just have it and not care if a foreign person showed up which would be the best solution, or have it closed and hopefully none of the solves will count officially. the only fair way to punish closed competitions is to make the solves not officially count. since they would not allow anyone an attempt at the scrambles, it voids any achievements made. also any competition could happen open the same as it could closed, that is not a valid reason, if an organizer wants a competition to happen, it will, without help from any sponsors, etc... second, the debate is clearly going nowhere. the closed supporters are too close minded to admit more people would benefit from open competitions than from closed ones, i don't believe it has anything to do with sponsors, i think its just stubborn close-mindedness that is the problem. i'm pretty sure if the sponsors didn't care, that these people would still want closed competitions. the only reason they are even requested by sponsors is because its been possible before, but if its changed, i know sponsors will bend to our will because they need us to promote their products, we should not have to bow to their desires, especially for a reason as stupid as money. ron, any chance we can get a public poll/vote setup for this issue? i think a public vote is the only fair way to decide this issue, i don't know if the wca board can make a decision without making a lot of people mad, so we should just make it a public vote and get it over with, i'm sick of listening to close-minded non-relevant arguments.

[quote="Dene":2vj42nly]Ok so there is a situation where 30 people are happy and 1 is not. How about a closed competition in California? Just say, for the sake of it, Lucas that SF09 was closed. Already 5 people would not be allowed to compete, including Lucas himself! Of course this situation is unlikely, but the possibility is still there, and it shouldn't be.[/quote:2vj42nly] But the US is a little different, too, so SF2009 is a bad example. I think the US has more noncitizens than any other country that participate in Rubik's Cube competitions. Macky (Japan), Takao (Japan), Lars Petrus (Sweden), Lucas (Germany), Wuquoing Fan (China), Wonjung Choi (Korea), Anthony Orji (Nigeria), Jasmine Lee (Australia), Peter Stills (Australia) and many others live here but do not represent the US. When I have competitors representing 5 countries at my competitions, they all live in USA but have different citizenship.

[quote="Bob":2546ek4s][quote="Dene":2546ek4s]Ok so there is a situation where 30 people are happy and 1 is not. How about a closed competition in California? Just say, for the sake of it, Lucas that SF09 was closed. Already 5 people would not be allowed to compete, including Lucas himself! Of course this situation is unlikely, but the possibility is still there, and it shouldn't be.[/quote:2546ek4s] But the US is a little different, too, so SF2009 is a bad example. I think the US has more noncitizens than any other country that participate in Rubik's Cube competitions. Macky (Japan), Takao (Japan), Lars Petrus (Sweden), Lucas (Germany), Wuquoing Fan (China), Wonjung Choi (Korea), Anthony Orji (Nigeria), Jasmine Lee (Australia), Peter Stills (Australia) and many others live here but do not represent the US. When I have competitors representing 5 countries at my competitions, they all live in USA but have different citizenship.[/quote:2546ek4s] I'm not sure if i get what you mean, or if you missed my point. My point is that, if competitions were to be closed to only US citizens in the US, then all these people [i:2546ek4s]would[/i:2546ek4s] be missing out, which is not fair. On that note, if a New Zealand competition were to be closed, would it only allow for Maori competitors, or would white citizens be allowed too? And how about Pacific Islanders? I mean, the organisers would have to sort that issue out, but the problem could potentially be there.

There are some people here that want explanations "founded in logic" for the case of closed competitions. Well, we're not dealing with an axiomatic system, so maybe we should try to think of all this in pragmatic terms. The main concern is unfairly denying people the chance to participate in a competition because of their nationality. The countries that do strictly enforce this are few, maybe only Poland, Spain and France. These happen to be countries that organise many opens all around the year, roughly 5 each. Anybody who is a foreigner in those countries (like myself) can still easily make it to several competitions in a year, not to mention all the competitions held in countries on their doorstep. I completely understand why the french wish to hold closed national championships, for the reasons they stated above. Well you might say that I am simply one data point and therefore not significant. Let's look at the only other data point in the case of France: Kanneti from Thailand. Great guy, he also completely understands the principle of closed competitions. So that's 2 of us, and I think that is it. So we're 100% significant data. We' re completely happy for closed competitions to take place in France, so why keep trying to deny the french to go ahead with thier closed nationals? Some of you argued so much in favour of an Open European championship 2009, but in the end it didn't affect a single person. there wasn't a single non-european that came. I would therefore now like to ask a question. How many of you were denied to go to a competition you really wanted to go to because of you natioanlity and were unhappy about it? And don't be all hypothetical about it. A vast majority of french cubers wish to hold a closed competition, for loads of valid reasons. They represent a free association of willing people that wish to have a closed competition, and the externalities, the ones directly affected by this choice, are completely happy about it. The impact of this choice on say, the US population is virtually none. So why are you still trying to impose your point of view on matters that don't concern you in this very real example.

[quote="Jason":2sgffco0] Some of you argued so much in favour of an Open European championship 2009, but in the end it didn't affect a single person. there wasn't a single non-european that came.[/quote:2sgffco0] Yeah, when it was moved to an "Open", the response wasn't exactly "I welcome this and hope that I'll be able to meet some great American and Asian cubers."

Hi, I read all your messages (from this thread, and from the other thread opened before the European championship on another forum). It's going nowhere. Let me just give my point of view. My opinion is very close to Edouard's. Firstly, let's keep in mind most of competitions are open competitions, especially those organized by fellow members of our community and I have yet to meet a cuber who dislikes foreigners. We have Aachen Open, San Francisco Open, French Open, etc., and everything's fine. For now, we are having a problem with two kinds of competitions: Some national and continental championships. If organizers of a national competition want to propose a national open, open to people from any country, where the national title is given, I'm okay with it. They decide. It may be interesting if they want more people attending, or if the competition takes place in a country of immigration where many cubers have a different nationality. If they choose a closed national championship, it is a perfectly legitimate option. A better one in my opinion. Pros: - Isn't it more logical if people attending Someland National Championship are Somelanders? This way, the champion of Someland National Championship is declared Someland National Champion. Just a matter of syntax. And otherwise... Press: "Mister Champion, you must be proud of your victory in our national championship, how did you feel the pressure?" Someland Champion: "Hu... Well, you know, I did not even qualify for round 2..." - A national or continental championship is something special. Why? Because it is national or continental. What if Brazil's soccer team wants to be part of Africa Cup? See what I mean? Come one! It is AFRICA Cup, stupid! Traditionally, in many sports we have competitions on different geographical scales. Maybe it's an old fashion way of celebrating together some kind of identity, but it means something to some of us. Of course, being the best cuber in a globalized world is fine, but participating in a smaller scale and non diluted competition is appealing too. Cons: - Some people living in the country not allowed to compete because of their nationality, as it happens in many sports. - Tourists not welcome. People forced to visit museums and having a life in the country they are visiting, instead of going to a cube competition. What a shame! - Angry cubers who want to have the right to be invited everywhere even if they'll never go. If WCA does not want to hear about any kind of national discrimination, then it should not promote national records, and wipe out all information about nationalities from its database. To sum it up, I am definitely for closed competitions. Allowing non European cubers to a European Championship is a non sense. Call it European Open. -- Gilles "stubborn, close-minded, egotistic and traditionalist" Roux P.S.: Please, don't make it yet another US vs France match. Many other people from other places may feel the same. P.S. #2: I would be fine without any national or continental championship, this is no personal fight.

[quote="Gilles":2kglpf4k] - Isn't it more logical if people attending Someland National Championship are Somelanders? This way, the champion of Someland National Championship is declared Someland National Champion. Just a matter of syntax. And otherwise... Press: "Mister Champion, you must be proud of your victory in our national championship, how did you feel the pressure?" Someland Champion: "Hu... Well, you know, I did not even qualify for round 2..." [/quote:2kglpf4k] OK, people keep bringing up this hypothetical situation. But still, even in one round you can determine the national champion. But hey, I'll go ahead and make up a completely hypothetical converstation: Press: "Mister Champion, you must be proud of your victory in our national championship, how did you feel the pressure?" Someland Champion: "Hu... Well, you know, I did average 45 seconds, so umm...yeah, I'm the champ!" Press: "45 seconds, really? I have a niece that can do it in 30. Are you sure it's 45?" Someland Champion: "I'm the National Champion! Give me a crown, put me in parades, I want to date a supermodel!" [quote="Gilles":2kglpf4k]Of course, being the best cuber in a globalized world is fine, but participating in a smaller scale and non diluted competition is appealing too. [/quote:2kglpf4k] So what other forms of dillution should be allowed? [quote="Gilles":2kglpf4k] - Some people living in the country not allowed to compete because of their nationality, as it happens in many sports. [/quote:2kglpf4k] Yup, just because it happens elsewhere, means we should do it too. Give some logic, not just "Me too!" [quote="Gilles":2kglpf4k] - Tourists not welcome. People forced to visit museums and having a life in the country they are visiting, instead of going to a cube competition. What a shame! [/quote:2kglpf4k] They'll go to those on different days. But how nice would it be to go to a foreign country, and for one day, hang out with people you have a common bond with? And get to compete while you're at it? [quote="Gilles":2kglpf4k] - Angry cubers who want to have the right to be invited everywhere even if they'll never go. [/quote:2kglpf4k] Yes, cubers aren't going to go to every competition if they become open, but they want to make sure they have the opportunity to, or they want to fight for the right of others to compete. So can any proponent of close competition argue why they should not be restricted to a single round to discourage them? You can still have a competition and determine the national champion from it. Or why should those results be WCA-official at all? You can use the WCA regulations as a guide, but the sponsor is free to modify them how they see fit. You still get to have a competition, you can restrict competitors any way you want, and you can add in whatever other requirements.

I honestly don't see the problem with closed competitions. Yes, many sports do have closed competitions... US Nationals in swimming being a good example. This allows teams (and particularly, individuals) from the US to compete with each other, and to compete with only other teams/people in the US to see who is best, without considering or worrying about other countries. And having swam in a few national meets, I honestly don't see the problem with it. Teams from other countries don't complain, and for the most part don't even want to compete in these events. Likewise, I wouldn't particularly want to compete in a French Nationals; I would want them to have the chance to compete amongst themselves and only themselves if they want to do so. So if anything, it would be unfair to deny people in a country the chance to compete among (only) themselves if they should want to. The point of closed competitions isn't to exclude others, the point is to give the citizens of a particular country the chance to compete among just themselves. And anyways, really... if you are going to complain about closed competitions, just organize an open one yourself...

[quote="Gilles":3gcayv6h] - A national or continental championship is something special. Why? Because it is national or continental. What if Brazil's soccer team wants to be part of Africa Cup? See what I mean? Come one! It is AFRICA Cup, stupid! [/quote:3gcayv6h] I think this is a bad example. Cubers play against each other in singles, not in groups. In a competition, there could be hundreds of cubers, but there aren't that many countries in the world. Here's another example, the NBA is the American basketball championships. However, not all players in the teams have to be American.

OK, I'll make the following proposition: - We make French Nationals open for one yeat. - Lots and lots of foreign cubers attend it. Yes, lots of them. They could be as many as 2 or 3. - They see how poorly that competition is run and swear they will never come to French Nationals again. - Next year we can make French Nationals closed again without anybody worrying about that. Agreed ?

[quote="BryanLogan":6cwat7zv] You can use the WCA regulations as a guide, but the sponsor is free to modify them how they see fit. You still get to have a competition, you can restrict competitors any way you want, and you can add in whatever other requirements.[/quote:6cwat7zv] I still didn't see any sponsor/organizer modifying the rules as they want...if that happened, I'm sure the competition wouldn't count as official... closed competitions happen because they're currently allowed in the regulations

[quote="Pedro_S":215hr6sg]I still didn't see any sponsor/organizer modifying the rules as they want...if that happened, I'm sure the competition wouldn't count as official... closed competitions happen because they're currently allowed in the regulations[/quote:215hr6sg] Yes, so change the regulations, and then let the sponsor pick what they think is more important. Having the results listed by the WCA, or being able to segregate however they choose. Since National titles aren't really official anyways, then who cares? And if the sponsor decides not to do it, the other people can organize a competition if they want a National title (at an open competition).

i don't really see how other sports organizations matter here, because this isn't other sports, this is cubing and i don't see why we can't have a higher standard, where anyone from anywhere can compete at any competition anytime (good example though with the NBA, anyone from any country can be a member an NBA team, based off of skill). the only person that has made this us vs france is edouard with his negative comment he refuses to take responsibility for. i really think we should set up a vote to handle this as opinions are so varied, it seems direct voting is the only fair way to handle it since some group will feel wronged if the wca just makes an arbitrary decision. two people in favor of closed competitions in their nonresident country is hardly a valid data set, and as i've said before BOTH sides have many supporters that are not commenting in this thread, so a direct vote again seems to be the obvious next step. pragamatics and blah blah blah doesn't matter, the simple fact is every cuber should have a shot at every set of scrambles. if competition xxx has an extremely easy scramble, everyone should have a chance at it that wants to, or any results based off that scramble should be voided. maybe a foreign cuber that would have attended the competition would be able to break the best time of a national competitor and set a better world record. if you don't compete against the world, then your results are not valid against the world database, seems obvious to me. and again open competitions allow national competitors to compete against each other, the presence of a foreigner doesn't take away from that unless you twist it in your head to make it that way. lets set up a vote and see what happens happy new year all

Edouard Chambon wrote: [quote:fxgfptxz]This is the only competition where you can finish 7th in the first round and not being in the final with 12 competitors, and finish 16th in the first round and participating to this final. Can you find it logical ? [/quote:fxgfptxz] Stefan Pochmann wrote: [quote:fxgfptxz]That's indeed odd, I completely agree. Was this enforced by the organizers, or did some non-Germans voluntarily step aside so more Germans could enter the final? I don't see anything about this on the competition page. [/quote:fxgfptxz] The answer is very simple. The best 6 Germans would qualify for the final. A maximum of 6 non Germans could qualify for the final as well. The numbers were different per event. Ron

The argument of the easy scramble is a bad one, I think. Because in the facts, that already happens. I don't speak of two competitions at the same time because you can choose. But when there are two (or more) groups in the first round of an event, if there is an easy scramble in the first group, the competitors of the other groups have not the same chance. Moreover, a polish guy can't compete on the scramble of the french champs, and a french guy can't compete on the scramble of the french champ, so there is a kind of compensation. I think that closed competition would be a problem if there were lots of it. I really don't see the problem. We have ONE closed competition each year in some countries, to determine the champion of this country. We have LOTS of open competitions each year in every countries, so lots of people are able to compete in lots of competitions. Another thing. If I see a closed competition where I can't compete in, then I will go to another competition/do other things than cubing that weekend. I don't care if people have fun and if I can't come and compete with them. If I'm in a country, not for cubing, and there is a closed competition then... remember, at the beginning, I said I was not in this country for cubing!!! So where is the problem?

For version 2009 draft 1 I added that closed competitions are a decision by WCA Board. WCA Board should only accept closed competitions in special cases. We have to leave this up to the WCA Board. I am 100% convinced that we cannot solve all issues regarding closed competitions in 2009. Some cases are really too complex, so I would like to keep the option open for closed competitions. Thanks, Ron

[quote="Ron":1y93m96g]The best 6 Germans would qualify for the final. A maximum of 6 non Germans could qualify for the final as well.[/quote:1y93m96g] Does that not violate rule 9g2? 9g2) Whether a competitor proceeds to next phase of a combined round, must be decided on position (best x competitors) or on result (all competitors with a best result under x).

[quote:2j5awgjd]Does that not violate rule 9g2?[/quote:2j5awgjd] No, because that article is about the two phases of a Combined round. In general there is no regulation for how people proceed to next round. The organiser could say (upfront of course): best 3 children, best 3 female competitors and worst 3 male competitors. Ron

[quote="Ron":316wb3w2][quote:316wb3w2]Does that not violate rule 9g2?[/quote:316wb3w2] No, because that article is about the two phases of a Combined round. In general there is no regulation for how people proceed to next round. The organiser could say (upfront of course): best 3 children, best 3 female competitors and worst 3 male competitors. Ron[/quote:316wb3w2] Perhaps that should be an optional regulation that any special "advancement" rules must be approved by the WCA board first and must be announced at the time of the competition.

[quote="BryanLogan":41j01ghz]Perhaps that should be an optional regulation that any special "advancement" rules must be approved by the WCA board first and must be announced at the time of the competition.[/quote:41j01ghz] Yes, I agree that this should need approval.

[quote:1jnc2m0n]Perhaps that should be an optional regulation that any special "advancement" rules must be approved by the WCA board first and must be announced at the time of the competition.[/quote:1jnc2m0n] In that case we have to define what is the "normal" advancement rule. And that one is more complex than it looks. Example if the "normal" advancement rule is that all best x competitors proceed to next round. - one qualified competitor goes home before the next round - one qualified competitor becomes ill after his first attempt in next round - we have an open German Nationals competition with German and non Germans - we have a school competition like the Inter Rubik ([url:1jnc2m0n]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6nsxw_finale2008_tech[/url:1jnc2m0n]) and GROUPS of competitors proceed to next round I think it is all too complex and only gives more and harder regulations. I prefer to keep it this way. Ron

Hi all, Two more things about the 'closed' vs. 'open' discussion. We like to see 'school' against 'school' competitions. These competitions are typically on a national level. I am in favour of accepting these competitions as official, if of course the regulations are followed correctly. The WCA Board can approve such a competition, but still try to have as many open competitions as possible. Of course all examples for other sports with closed competitions are correct. Still, I would like to see that the WCA is different from other sports organisations, in this aspect. We are a community of friends, regardless of culture, nationality, politics, religion et cetera. The more fun and the more people, the better. Have fun, Ron

[quote="Ron":puhflfem]And that one is more complex than it looks. Example if the "normal" advancement rule is that all best x competitors proceed to next round. - one qualified competitor goes home before the next round - one qualified competitor becomes ill after his first attempt in next round - we have an open German Nationals competition with German and non Germans - we have a school competition like the Inter Rubik ([url:puhflfem]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6nsxw_finale2008_tech[/url:puhflfem]) and GROUPS of competitors proceed to next round I think it is all too complex and only gives more and harder regulations. [/quote:puhflfem] Not really. Your first two examples are "no-shows", which are typically handled by selecting the next person. And your second two are deviations, which can be as complex as you want, they just have to be announced and approved by the board. Add: 9t) Competitors advancing to the next round must be done by the order of results in 9f, with the "Top X" advancing. If a competitor is not available for the next round, he may be replaced by the next highest ranked competitor not yet competing in that round. Any deviation from this rule must be approved by the WCA board and announced when the competition is announced. I think this is really important, since most people assume this was already the rule. Without it, you could make advancement rules for basically ensuring a closed competition or even for personal profit. *- Round 2 will have 32 competitors. 31 of non-Foo citizenship, and 1 of Foo citizenship. *- Round 2 will have 32 competitors. 31 members of "Foo Cube Club" will advance, and 1 of non-member will advance. Foo Cube Club memberships available for $10 at the door.

[quote="Ron":2oqlnl3t]Hi all, Two more things about the 'closed' vs. 'open' discussion. [size=150:2oqlnl3t]We like to see 'school' against 'school' competitions. These competitions are typically on a national level.[/size:2oqlnl3t] I am in favour of accepting these competitions as official, if of course the regulations are followed correctly. The WCA Board can approve such a competition, but still try to have as many open competitions as possible. Of course all examples for other sports with closed competitions are correct. Still, I would like to see that the WCA is different from other sports organisations, in this aspect. We are a community of friends, regardless of culture, nationality, politics, religion et cetera. The more fun and the more people, the better. Have fun, Ron[/quote:2oqlnl3t] When you say National Level, Are you talking about colleges?

[quote="BryanLogan":2f6zw1gx]9t) Competitors advancing to the next round must be done by the order of results in 9f, with the "Top X" advancing. If a competitor is not available for the next round, he may be replaced by the next highest ranked competitor not yet competing in that round. Any deviation from this rule must be approved by the WCA board and announced when the competition is announced.[/quote:2f6zw1gx] This is a good idea, but I think that if you do this, the regulations should also allow "all competitors with a single solve under X" or "all competitors with an average under X" as the criterion for advancing. This is common practice for individual rounds and especially combined finals.