Do we really need this? Why is it in feet cubing you can use the mat, but not in OH cubing? I would like to see this event removed.

I'm gonna make a suprise move and agree with Tyson here. Feet solving is a superfluous event. Good for fun and party tricks, but not as an official cubing event. It is too much of a joke, in my opinion.

Where are the people who like this event? Would the people who object please say something? Are there any people who object? I mean, I would hate to have the event retired and then people complaining that they never got a chance to voice their opinion.

I both like and dislike it. I like it because it *is* different, if you want to be at top level you better find a good twisting style suited for what you can do with feet, and possibly use different algorithms or even different methods suited for that twisting style. I dislike it for hygiene concerns, i.e., that scramblers/judges have to touch feet-cubes and that timers are used with feet that others have to use with their hands.

[quote="StefanPochmann":35m8zqjn]I both like and dislike it. I like it because it *is* different, if you want to be at top level you better find a good twisting style suited for what you can do with feet, and possibly use different algorithms or even different methods suited for that twisting style. I dislike it for hygiene concerns, i.e., that scramblers/judges have to touch feet-cubes and that timers are used with feet that others have to use with their hands.[/quote:35m8zqjn] Hygiene... TERRIBLE! I remember at WC 2007 during the blindfold finals, my timer definitely had a very... very foul odor. I was not a fan. Ron tried to argue with me that "feet are cleaner than hands." Whereas the variety of bacteria on feet are certainly less, the far higher availability of moisture on feet and less air circulation definitely contribute to more odor. And also, hands are washed much more frequently throughout the day. And really, it's not about just bacteria. It's more about the stink on the timers.

Tyson: Might I point out that feet solving is one of my specialities. I do like it, but I still think it is silly.

I vote for keeping feetcubing. It requires different dexterity and solving technique compared to all other events, as Stefan already pointed out. It has been held on all continents that have housed competitions, eventhough it seems to be less popular in North America (www.x.se/y7g5) The hygien issue can be mitigated by requiring that the organisers have gloves available for any judge or scramber who wants it. I think such an anmendment to the regulations would be good in general, not only pertinent to feetcubing. @Tyson Less than 14 hours after your first post, it seemed that you were prepared to retire the event becaue no-one spoke up in favour for it. What did you expect? Feetcubing seems to most popular in Korea and the eastern part of Europe if looking into the WCA database, whereas most active people here on the WCA forum are from North America and (north-)west Europe (I would be happy to be proven wrong regarding my last statement, but unfortunately I think I am correct). /Anders

I for one would like to see improved hygiene standards for feet. I honestly don't care how clean feet ACTUALLY are if the truth is that people's feet smell. If someone's hands smelled as bad as typical stinky feet, I'd definitely have them wash their hands before competing. So I think if we keep feetsolving we should force the organizers to have some kind of setup for making feetsolving less potentially disgusting. One solution might be to clean people's feet: for example have a bowl of water and a towel so that people can wash their feet off before competing. Another would be to require people to wear socks during the event, or even provide socks if competitors don't come wearing them. Finally you could amend the rules so feetsolvers cannot use the mat, or so that they must start/stop the timer with hands. I don't know what the best solution is, but I do know that in its current state I would never hold feetsolving simply because I wouldn't want to touch the timers and cubes again, so a solution would be helpful.

Rather than hark on it being discontinued (which I wouldn't mind), I would like to see: 1) If you're doing foot event, cubes must be collected at the beginning of the competition and given back at the end of the competition (so competitors aren't using their same cube for regular 3x3x3 events). Don't have a dedicated foot cube? Tough. 2) Timers must be marked at "feet" timer with permanent marker, and should never be used for other events. Don't have a timer to dedicated to feet? Tough.

I also wouldn't be disappointed if this event were removed. Another option is to require timers during footsolving to have a thin transparent covering that still lets them function, like saran wrap. Dedicated cubes would be good, too.

I'd rather cleaning feet than having a separate cube or timer. Also, socks qq? Have you tried that? Also, gloves can be used (in fact, I think golves should be compulsory for all events). Cubes can be cleaned, timers can be cleaned, no need for separate ones. Easiest option: remove feet solving.

I think that it is an awful event. The issues of hygiene are at the top of my concerns about it. I do not want to use a timer that someone else had their feet on, and I certainly don't want to scramble that person's cube. Remove the event.

[quote="Dene":zeaa4b82]I'd rather cleaning feet than having a separate cube or timer. Also, socks qq? Have you tried that? Also, gloves can be used (in fact, I think golves should be compulsory for all events). Cubes can be cleaned, timers can be cleaned, no need for separate ones. Easiest option: remove feet solving.[/quote:zeaa4b82] Cubes can be cleaned? Timers can be cleaned? No need for separate ones? Who is cleaning the cubes? Who is cleaning the timers? Right... I [b:zeaa4b82]ASSURE [/b:zeaa4b82]you, the timers will never be cleaned. And I [b:zeaa4b82]GUARANTEE[/b:zeaa4b82] that if the cleaning of the cubes and timers were part of the regulations, no organizer would ever hold this event. Which essentially removes the event.

Exactly! Did you miss the last line?

The main reason why we still do feetsolving is because it's good media attention right? At least Ron told me such a thing once I think and he's right. I think at least SOMETHING has to change. The way it is now is stupid cause there are maybe 2 or 3 tournaments a year in whole Europe where there is a feet event and only 1 where you can actually do the mean of 3 for it. I think people who are whining about hygiene are a bit overreacting and use it as a too strong argument. Though of course I see the hygienic aspects too, which is why a possible option maybe could be that you have to use your own mat and timer. I know not everyone has it but did anyone ever practise feet without a stackmat? It's horrible... Oh and yeah I do use a special cube for feet which I also use for underwater so it's cleaned once in a while too Either way, I wouldn't care much if it was deleted since I'll not miss it anyway because we never hold feet events... But if it's not deleted I would like to see more tournaments with feet and always do the mean of 3 or just delete the mean of 3... Have fun discussing

[quote="Erik":3ii4s16k]The main reason why we still do feetsolving is because it's good media attention right?[/quote:3ii4s16k] I think it's negative media attention. Imagine if you're watching some competition you're not familiar with. Let's say those Lumberjack competitions. You see them racing with axes, racing with saws, etc. Now, you see some guy sawing with his feet. OK, while it may look interesting, most people are just going to say, "That just looks goofy." You don't really think of it as a sport anymore, you think of it as a sideshow circus act.

Have you ever seen an article which said: 'they are even so disgusting and geeky that they even solve it with feet'?? Don't think so, I've only seen 'and they can even solve it with their feet!!!' if you see a video compilation from for example the WC '07 do you see there a person solving a megaminx or a cube with feet? They probably only display the normal and the feet...

[quote="Erik":216s9x6n]Have you ever seen an article which said: 'they are even so disgusting and geeky that they even solve it with feet'?? [/quote:216s9x6n] Of course, and lots of time. I think, like Tyson said that this "event" is not necessary, and even more gives a bad image of speedcubers. But that's in the rules that events can be removed and new events added every year. So... let's see this year removed events ! I read people wanted to delete clock... There are other event that I would prefer to be deleted first (big cubes BLD and feet).

Feet cubing has already been effectively retired in the US. The only two times it has been held in the US are at Worlds '05 and Caltech Spring 2005. At the latter tournament, only one person competed in the event and only because he was physically unable to solve a cube with his hands.

Even if you fix the hygiene issue, this event still remains silly and gross. It is kind of embarrassing that this is an official event of the WCA, but that's just me...

I don't really have a big opinion about this event, but the arguments that some people use are just too funny. About the hygiene issue: There are also some indivudual cubers who spread an 'odor', and we don't ban them from competitions, and ppl who sneeze also spread bacteria; get over it. Also, I don't think anyone ever got sick from touching a 'feet-cube'. Refusing to scramble those cubes, or having special 'feet' timers sounds pathetic. Don't be a wuss. I'll scramble every last one of them if I have to. I don't really think this event gives a negative image of cubers when it appears on TV. People will find an item about cubing 'goofy' and 'nerdy' anyway. I don't think the feet-solving can make it worse. The only argument I would understand, is that there are a lot of events causing the winners ceremony to take eons. I would not mind if the number of events would be reduced... However, this argument applies to many events (and I am guessing that this is also one of the reasons Tyson wants the 'feet-solving' removed). To summarise: I don't have problems with scrambling feet-cubes. If it is removed, I hope that it will be for other reasons than people complaining about hygiene.

[quote="jnoort":1tbiyx7e]I don't really think this event gives a negative image of cubers when it appears on TV. People will find an item about cubing 'goofy' and 'nerdy' anyway. I don't think the feet-solving can make it worse.[/quote:1tbiyx7e] I disagree. I think feet solving will only make people have different levels of how much lameness/grossness/etc. cubing contains. Sorry, don't know how else I should word it...

You think the cubers that think footsolving is unhygenic are the only ones? I'd assume there would be the same ratio of noncubers that find it disgusting.

[quote="blade740":gtwp4l5m]You think the cubers that think footsolving is unhygenic are the only ones? I'd assume there would be the same ratio of noncubers that find it disgusting.[/quote:gtwp4l5m] I can't tell if you post was pointed towards mine, but anyhow, I agree with you.

I absolutely agree with jnoort on this one. Removing the feet cubing event is fine with me, but I would like to see more well-supported arguments discussing the purpose and reasoning of the WCA supporting the event rather than arguments debating the hygienics of the feet or just a simple "it's disgusting". I claim that we should keep in mind that the objective of the WCA is [b:15r2rmff] more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions.[/b:15r2rmff] The hygienics of the feet should be a separate issue. That is, unless being dirty is not fair, and there is still a significant demand in the cube society for the feet cubing event, I believe the event should go on. I mean if people who host competitions are so concerned about the hygiene of feet cubing, they should just simply not include that event in their competition. Now, for whatever reason, if the number of competitions with the feet cubing event decreases significantly and there are no complains amongst cubers, (which could be because of the hygienics of the feet) I believe this indirectly implies there is a decrease in the demand of the event. Then, I believe this is not only [i:15r2rmff]a[/i:15r2rmff] valid reason, but [i:15r2rmff]the most[/i:15r2rmff] appropriate reason of considering to remove an event from the list of events that the WCA manages. All I am saying is, when deciding to remove an event, there should be more reasons towards the demand of the event and to what extent WCA should support the event. In conclusion, an event should be removed if there is a significant drop in the demand of the event. But you know, this is only my opinion. Thank you for reading, Ilkyoo Choi.

[quote="Tyson":2svg1vyg]Where are the people who like this event? Would the people who object please say something? Are there any people who object? I mean, I would hate to have the event retired and then people complaining that they never got a chance to voice their opinion.[/quote:2svg1vyg] I think that most people who cube don't know about this website and the forum. Maybe at competitions, the judges and or delegate could point out the website.

[quote="cubetalk":dfs9lhfh][quote="Tyson":dfs9lhfh]Where are the people who like this event? Would the people who object please say something? Are there any people who object? I mean, I would hate to have the event retired and then people complaining that they never got a chance to voice their opinion.[/quote:dfs9lhfh] I think that most people who cube don't know about this website and the forum. Maybe at competitions, the judges and or delegate could point out the website.[/quote:dfs9lhfh] I think it's a good thing that this fourm is not a highly populated fourm like say, speedsolving.com. For the most part people are more experienced cubers on this fourm and not someone who just started and does not know how things are and should be done.

[quote="PatrickJameson":2t90rx9r]I think it's a good thing that this fourm is not a highly populated fourm like say, speedsolving.com. For the most part people are more experienced cubers on this fourm and not someone who just started and does not know how things are and should be done.[/quote:2t90rx9r] Unlike speedsolving.com, I can keep track of this forum.

At Euro 2008 the feet solving event was a big success. We had a big audience with outsiders and they obviously enjoyed watching the event. Really. I mostly like it because it is a nice intermezzo in between all the serious stuff. Having said that, it is also an extreme event. Most of the time only a couple of cubers compete. Maybe 10 cubers in the world are actively practicing this event. The main question for me is: will this event be held as an unofficial event if we would remove it as an official event? Because if that is the case, then removing it or not having more regulations on hygiene will actually not help. Btw. are you sure that all cubes you scrambled were not used by someone who just went to the bathroom and there was no toilet paper? Can we come to a conclusion on this? It looks like there is a majority of people against Feet solving. Ron

[quote="Ron":3gec1ifx]It looks like there is a majority of people against Feet solving. [/quote:3gec1ifx] A majority? On what do you base this statemet on? In the poll initiated by Edouard, 19 people have voted for removing Feet solving. There are 4424 people registered in the WCA database... /Anders

[quote="anders":3vqttk1g][quote="Ron":3vqttk1g]It looks like there is a majority of people against Feet solving. [/quote:3vqttk1g] A majority? On what do you base this statemet on? In the poll initiated by Edouard, 19 people have voted for removing Feet solving. There are 4424 people registered in the WCA database... /Anders[/quote:3vqttk1g] how many voted in the poll, in total? how many people we have registered here? you can't base you count in the total number of competitors...some don't even know this website exists...

[quote="Pedro_S":1n6xxeuf][quote="anders":1n6xxeuf][quote="Ron":1n6xxeuf]It looks like there is a majority of people against Feet solving. [/quote:1n6xxeuf] A majority? On what do you base this statemet on? In the poll initiated by Edouard, 19 people have voted for removing Feet solving. There are 4424 people registered in the WCA database... /Anders[/quote:1n6xxeuf] how many voted in the poll, in total? how many people we have registered here? you can't base you count in the total number of competitors...some don't even know this website exists...[/quote:1n6xxeuf] This is a most interesting observation. We base the future of the cubing society on a discussion in a forum that quite some cubers do not know exist. This goes for all disucssions about the 2009 regulations. As I understand it, it is mostly americans and europeans who air their opinions here, and thus I agree that my comparison is quite unfair. On the other hand, I find that the total number of competitors is a valid reference norm, since it is the competitiors that make the cubing society. But aren't you interested in what kind of information that Ron used for claiming what he did? /Anders

That poll was silly anyway.

[quote="Edouard Chambon":2p88iwd6][quote="Erik":2p88iwd6]Have you ever seen an article which said: 'they are even so disgusting and geeky that they even solve it with feet'?? [/quote:2p88iwd6] Of course, and lots of time. [/quote:2p88iwd6] Links? Please show me and I'll gladly provide many more articles that show admiratiton or other positive reactions. I solved a cube on the television lately with feet (that was not really my idea but nonetheles..) I only had good reactions like wow and impressive. I didn't have one reaction that people find it gross. And like Ron said it's very entertaining for the audience! Also I think Anders is really bringing up a good point here. The polls on this forum are quite useless because very few people actually look around at this forum and even less people join the discussions here.

[quote="Erik":36m41fbg][quote="Edouard Chambon":36m41fbg][quote="Erik":36m41fbg]Have you ever seen an article which said: 'they are even so disgusting and geeky that they even solve it with feet'?? [/quote:36m41fbg] Of course, and lots of time. [/quote:36m41fbg] Links? Please show me and I'll gladly provide many more articles that show admiratiton or other positive reactions. I solved a cube on the television lately with feet (that was not really my idea but nonetheles..) I only had good reactions like wow and impressive. I didn't have one reaction that people find it gross. And like Ron said it's very entertaining for the audience! Also I think Anders is really bringing up a good point here. The polls on this forum are quite useless because very few people actually look around at this forum and even less people join the discussions here.[/quote:36m41fbg] The media isn't going to outright say, "It's gross." A lot of times they'll just go out of their way to point that out and ignore many other aspects of the competition. By pointing it out, they're letting the viewer decide. I'm betting you can find newscasts on someone who eats weird things. The news anchor may not say that's gross, but when they specifically point out that the person eats scorpions, they're doing it because it's gross.

Personally I don't find eating scorpions that gross... in some countries they eat cockroaches and dogs too, or eat living fish which is partly fried... Maybe they ment that what he eats is a great variety of things, or just weird thing and this is the reason that they make an item of it. Not necessarily because it's gross. My point is that these 'between the lines' hints are not necessarily ment as hints and are just coincidental or non-existing. Maybe you want to read in that way between the lines. If they say some feet solvers can solve a cube in under a minute they might also mean it's actually quite impressive where you would maybe see that they mean that some people have no life and practise disgusting things and even reach sub-1... The same goes for the reason why they make an item for it. Personally I think they just do it because it's weird and impressive. I once saw an item about a women or men who lost his/her arms and still repairs watches with his/her feet! (don't remember the gender) I can't imagine they would broadcast this because it would be gross, but only because it's an amazing skill. EDIT 1-1-09 check out this for instance: http://youtube.com/watch?v=m3gMgK7h-BA nobody would say what he does is gross..

[quote:9lmiu6f2]But aren't you interested in what kind of information that Ron used for claiming what he did?[/quote:9lmiu6f2] I wrote: [quote:9lmiu6f2]It looks like there is a majority of people against Feet solving.[/quote:9lmiu6f2] And I do feel that on the WCA forum there is a majority of people against Feet solving. I agree with you that the WCA forum is not a good representation of our community. Actually I am very happy with the people who ARE active on this forum. If there were a scale from follower to opinion maker, then a lot of people on this forum would be on the opinion maker side of our community. I would love to see more people from Asia on this forum though. My conclusion of this discussion is that we cannot just remove the Feet event. For me it goes against the 'more fun' if we would remove it. I am open to hygiene solutions for the event. Ron

[quote="Ron":yy0d6qhy]I am open to hygiene solutions for the event.[/quote:yy0d6qhy] Require the timer to be covered with something like saran wrap, and don't use the mat. (The timer still works fine if covered like this.)

[quote:3qw9cdlq]I am open to hygiene solutions for the event.[/quote:3qw9cdlq] It is pretty easy for me to save some big mats for feetsolving. The timer pads can be cleaned easily. But... do we need this in the regulations or can we put it elsewhere? Ron

Since we are still talking about feet cubing, I assume this is still an official event?

i personally dont think that it is a necessary event... BUT if much of the non-cubing community loses interest in watching cubing, as an effect of feel-solving's removal, then the event should not be withdrawn. it is possible that the "sport" of speedcubing cannot last long without outside support, which is why the audience must be kept happy. i'm sure that no one wants the wca to disband due to lack of support (like in the 80s when the cube craze was over and there would not be another competition for 2 decades --> which happened due to an uninterested public). On the other hand, if cubing can feed on itself or public interest does not matter, then go ahead and remove feet-solving. it would save time, and some other event/s could be added. maybe even some exotic puzzle (not one that no one knows, im thinking skewb)

Nice anekdote: yesterday I was at a German TV show, had to solve the cube with feet. Still the next day I got an email from the contactperson of the TV that 2 girls would like to have my emailadres... I guess it doesn't repulse them (or they just have a feet fetish...)

This brings the problem of adding events (such as 6x6 and 7x7) without removing any other event. I totally agree with Joel, it becomes really hard to put in place competitions where all official events can take place. During the Swiss Open, I especially did not approve on doing the 6x6 and 7x7 when making the schedule since those were unofficial events. Due to a lack of communication we (the WCA delegate and I) ended thinking that those could be official events and since we had some extra time we did the 6x6 event (We had no time for the 7x7). Furthermore I had competitors asking me during the competition if we could do the 7x7 or feet solving... but also team solving, 2x2 one-handed, etc. Imagine if those events become official... With the increased number of competitions, organizers will have to offer "very attractive" events to make sure that enough competitors show up. And we will end up having competitions offering all the same popular events. I'd hate to see 2 competitions being scheduled on the same week-end with one having 10 competitors and the other having 100 competitors, just because the latter offered an additional 11x11 event. Feet solving has had 80 competitors so far, is it really worth keeping it official (same thing with big cubes blindfolded). I personally will not organize a feet solving event for the next competitions I organize, because I will rather have an unofficial team solving event. For the hygiene issue, I would simply recommend having no stackmats anymore but simply a judge with a stopwatch. Sorry for picking the thread a little late, but I had to give my opinion on this, Sven

How about we do this - we let the speedcubing community vote in the speedsolving forum. That way, we can ensure that almost all speedcubers can get to say their views on the event.

Hi cubeaddicted, I'm sorry but this post is more than 3 years old... Please check the date before bumping a topic.