2009: Separate category for women

Pitzu (2008-11-12 17:35:02 +0000)
Don't you think we could have separate race or category for women, like in any other sports. At least in 3x3 speedcubing. And if there is more than one woman in a competition.
StefanPochmann (2008-11-12 18:40:41 +0000)
No. Why?
Shelley (2008-11-12 18:57:48 +0000)
In other sports physical differences between men and women make a difference. In general men are bigger and stronger than women so it makes sense to have separate leagues/competitions. There's no such imbalance in cubing. The WCA has started recording gender information for competitors, so I suppose you could eventually look up women's rankings for statistical purposes, much as you can look up rankings for a particular country or region. But I see no reason to make gender separated competitions.
Laetitia (2008-11-12 23:49:12 +0000)
Why? I think speedcubing is one sport where there is really no difference between men and women. Moreover, we are not a lot of girls cubing, and I don't want to compete alone or just with one or two other girls... Imagine that if we were separated, the boy competition with 30 competitors, and the girl competition with 2 competitors... It wouldn't make sense...
blade740 (2008-11-13 06:34:56 +0000)
Is there any event (besides maybe speedsolve) that doesn't have one woman that completely dominates? For example, Shelley in BLD, or Laititia in megaminx. Splitting it up is just basically guaranteeing them easy wins instead of forcing them to be competitive.
Pitzu (2008-11-13 13:05:37 +0000)
There is also separate category/ranking list for women in chess. However sometimes the Polgár girls led the man rankings. :P There are differences in man & woman way of thinking, in working of our brain. For example women are better in multitasking, men are better in spatial skills, and as cubing requires spatial skills, that's why I thought this. I've seen a very good film about it in some educational channel and there is a book with the same title: [url=http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0806524731:279a3sea]Why Men Don't Iron[/url:279a3sea] And of course there can be a minimum number of competitors to have a separate category. Maybe only in bigger competitions and for the first time only in 3x3 speedcubing.
StefanPochmann (2008-11-13 13:41:35 +0000)
[quote="Pitzu":2c91mo12]There is also separate category/ranking list for women in chess.[/quote:2c91mo12] So what? [quote:2c91mo12]There are differences in man & woman way of thinking, in working of our brain.[/quote:2c91mo12] Nature or nurture? Relevance?
Dene (2008-11-13 19:12:04 +0000)
[quote="Pitzu":vf69kb5f] There are differences in man & woman way of thinking, in working of our brain. For example women are better in multitasking, men are better in spatial skills, and as cubing requires spatial skills, that's why I thought this. [/quote:vf69kb5f] While there might be statistically significant differences found through empirical testing, in reality the difference is crap all.
qqwref (2008-11-14 04:32:08 +0000)
I really don't think there is much difference between men and women when it comes to cubing. From experience it seems that all you need to do well is motivation and practice. It's not even a very athletic sport, so the physical differences between men and women won't cause any differences in speed: it's all in the mind and fingers. For the same reason, I think we should not segregate by age either, but just stay all as one group. There are sub-20 cubers who are under 10 years old and over 40, so it's not a disadvantage. Having separate groups (of any kind) just implies that the cubing community thinks that one type of person is intrinsically better than another. They're not.
Pitzu (2008-11-14 08:49:48 +0000)
There are many many studies about differences in spatial skills between genders. Just have a look [url=http://www.google.hu/search?as_q=men+women&hl=hu&num=20&btnG=Google+keres%C3%A9s&as_epq=spatial+skills&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=:1ms4dx5a]here[/url:1ms4dx5a] or [url=http://www.google.hu/search?as_q=gender&hl=hu&num=10&btnG=Google+keres%C3%A9s&as_epq=Purdue+Spatial+Visualization+Test&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=:1ms4dx5a]here[/url:1ms4dx5a]!
Dene (2008-11-14 09:03:29 +0000)
[quote="Pitzu":x2idcaet]There are many many studies about differences in spatial skills between genders. Just have a look [url=http://www.google.hu/search?as_q=men+women&hl=hu&num=20&btnG=Google+keres%C3%A9s&as_epq=spatial+skills&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=:x2idcaet]here[/url:x2idcaet] or [url=http://www.google.hu/search?as_q=gender&hl=hu&num=10&btnG=Google+keres%C3%A9s&as_epq=Purdue+Spatial+Visualization+Test&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=:x2idcaet]here[/url:x2idcaet]![/quote:x2idcaet] Oh I am very familiar with this. My majors are in psychology and philosophy, and this sort of thing comes up very often. But yet again, as I say, the difference is exaggerated. For example: out of 5 (on some random test), males might average 3.5, and females average 3.2. With enough participants, this tiny difference can reach statistical significance.
Laetitia (2008-11-14 09:46:08 +0000)
I'm not sure that those differences make one gender better than the other at cubing. Men have better spatial skills, but women are supposed to be better at multitasking, so maybe looking ahead is easier (one task : bringing pieces to their place, second task : searching the next pieces) Moreover, the results show that women can be as fast as men : Charlie, Shelley and I are in top-10 for an event (pyraminx, 444 bld, megaminx).
MadsMohr (2008-11-14 10:17:47 +0000)
The gaming community and the poker community have done some women only tournaments, but most tournaments are gender neutral. It could serve as good publicity and could get more women interested in cubing, but i don't think that this should be regulated. It should be up to organizers to decide if they want to have special categories like: fastest single solve, national titles in an open format competition and fastest female.
StefanPochmann (2008-11-14 10:38:53 +0000)
[quote="Pitzu":wy5xixd0]There are many many studies about differences in spatial skills between genders. Just have a look [url=http://www.google.hu/search?as_q=men+women&hl=hu&num=20&btnG=Google+keres%C3%A9s&as_epq=spatial+skills&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=:wy5xixd0]here[/url:wy5xixd0] or [url=http://www.google.hu/search?as_q=gender&hl=hu&num=10&btnG=Google+keres%C3%A9s&as_epq=Purdue+Spatial+Visualization+Test&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=:wy5xixd0]here[/url:wy5xixd0]![/quote:wy5xixd0] Again: So what? Please show studies concerning [b:wy5xixd0]cubing[/b:wy5xixd0]! As far as I know, we're not the World Spatial Skills Association. Plus you didn't answer the nature vs nurture aspect. Btw, if I were female, I'd probably feel insulted by your suggestion that males are naturally better cubers and the poor females need to be separated and protected from the superior males (you didn't explicitly say it this way, but that's what you sound like).
qqwref (2008-11-14 20:48:42 +0000)
Just because there is a small difference between the average man and the average woman does not mean that we should separate people like that. There are much bigger differences than that between cubers of the same gender. Should we have separate divisions for "people who are naturally good at blockbuilding" versus "people who can't see how pieces fit together in their head"?
blade740 (2008-11-15 19:30:48 +0000)
I think we should separate into "beard" and "no beard" categories.
StefanPochmann (2008-11-15 20:13:50 +0000)
[quote="blade740":17smij3j]I think we should separate into "beard" and "no beard" categories.[/quote:17smij3j] But then what about Bob? Allegedly he can grow a beard even during one competition.
anders (2008-11-15 23:26:07 +0000)
There is quite a difference between having a beard and being unshaved... [quote="StefanPochmann":3ler1kc6][quote="blade740":3ler1kc6]I think we should separate into "beard" and "no beard" categories.[/quote:3ler1kc6] But then what about Bob? Allegedly he can grow a beard even during one competition.[/quote:3ler1kc6]
blade740 (2008-11-16 00:05:33 +0000)
[quote="anders":ndclje3o]There is quite a difference between having a beard and being unshaved... [quote="StefanPochmann":ndclje3o][quote="blade740":ndclje3o]I think we should separate into "beard" and "no beard" categories.[/quote:ndclje3o] But then what about Bob? Allegedly he can grow a beard even during one competition.[/quote:ndclje3o][/quote:ndclje3o] Quite true. There should be some WCA ruling as to what constitutes a beard, versus "stubble" Anyway, this rule is much like separating men and women, except the women will also be joined by some of the "less manly" of the men. Any man with the testosterone level to have a significant difference in physiology from a woman will also have a respectable beard.
Bob (2008-11-16 08:52:21 +0000)
Well, typically I have to shave three or four times during a competition so that I do not grow a full beard. Otherwise, nobody recognizes me at the end of the day. :( I see no sense in separating men and women into separate categories.
Tyson (2008-11-18 18:56:15 +0000)
In making a separate category for women and men, you are essentially saying that one gender is less capable than the other, and cannot compete on the same level. I really think this is false. Girls rock at cubing! (There just needs to be more of them. (So I don't have to be so lonely. (I guess adoption is always an option. (Oh why in the world did I go to Caltech?) ) ) ) I don't think there should be a separate category for women in chess either, but chess is very much more of a business that competitive Rubik's Cube solving. People make their livings playing chess. Should there be gender divisions in math competitions too?
rubik_fr (2008-11-27 21:46:13 +0000)
The extension of that discussion could be : Do we settle a category for young people and for old people, and if yes, what could be the limit of age ? I say that because I have regularly one or two persons asking me the question when in a competition. Moreover, now that I'm organising the french OPEN 2009, I receive such interogation regarding the registring of someone or not. I agree that's being the only one in a category is too easy to win in it, but we could find an intermediate way of "classification" by giving a special gift or grateful, I don't know actually. I especially think to very young kids who like to be awarded when competing (and of course to the veteran ! :lol: to which category I am belonging :lol: :lol: ) Back to serious, I know few people who are sensitive to that aspect of "ranking". Even if statistics are there to express such info. JLM
Bob (2008-11-28 01:13:52 +0000)
I don't like the idea of different categories for male/female or young/old. Does belonging in any of these categories make you slower than someone else who doesn't?
blade740 (2008-11-28 06:12:53 +0000)
This is exactly why I suggested beard/no beard. Bearded men are much more likely to have a higher physical strength, which can affect the time it takes to solve a very stiff cube.
StefanPochmann (2008-11-28 09:15:03 +0000)
[quote="rubik_fr":a4bre77s]very young kids who like to be awarded when competing[/quote:a4bre77s] Uh uh here here! I like to be awarded, too! So create the Stefan Pochmann category right away! I do not want to have to work hard to actually earn and deserve awards!
blade740 (2008-11-28 10:24:21 +0000)
Any competition in the US would add a Stefan Pochmann category if you asked.
Pedro_S (2008-11-28 19:08:20 +0000)
people also ask about time/speed categories but that doesn't seems good to me...where do we draw the lines and why? they say it may be an extra incentive for the "slow" people...but...what's a better incentive than having someone faster than you? :roll: and cubing is so nice because everybody is treated the same way, you get to chance to compete in equal conditions against anyone in the world (btw, if you have more arguments against this time/speed division, please message to me so I can send people next time they ask about it :mrgreen: )
BryanLogan (2008-11-28 21:18:58 +0000)
[quote="StefanPochmann":1d3hmt4a][quote="rubik_fr":1d3hmt4a]very young kids who like to be awarded when competing[/quote:1d3hmt4a] Uh uh here here! I like to be awarded, too! So create the Stefan Pochmann category right away! I do not want to have to work hard to actually earn and deserve awards![/quote:1d3hmt4a] Now we just need to find a minimum of 2 competitors. But if you want to award young kids, just award them. Nothing in the ruels prohibits you giving out special awards. And just because people ask a question alot, doesn't mean we should change the rules. I frequently get asked if people can really solve it under 10 seconds. Should we make that the lower limit for solves? No, people are just curious.
MadsMohr (2008-11-28 21:59:56 +0000)
[quote="Pedro_S":hv99qe58]and cubing is so nice because everybody is treated the same way, you get to chance to compete in equal conditions against anyone in the world[/quote:hv99qe58] Hear hear! I wouldn't mind though if we had a women category in the statistics page.
Bob (2008-11-29 01:15:41 +0000)
[quote="StefanPochmann":1lky7hbc]Uh uh here here! I like to be awarded, too! So create the Stefan Pochmann category right away! I do not want to have to work hard to actually earn and deserve awards![/quote:1lky7hbc] Didn't you lose that category in Atlanta? I think we should have a category for people who almost got mugged. I want an award, too. :)
blade740 (2008-11-29 08:01:06 +0000)
[quote="Bob":19x18ke7][quote="StefanPochmann":19x18ke7]Uh uh here here! I like to be awarded, too! So create the Stefan Pochmann category right away! I do not want to have to work hard to actually earn and deserve awards![/quote:19x18ke7] Didn't you lose that category in Atlanta? I think we should have a category for people who almost got mugged. I want an award, too. :)[/quote:19x18ke7] It would be too easy to get a friend to mug me. Then you'd have to beat me to get your award.
StefanPochmann (2008-11-29 12:14:06 +0000)
[quote="Bob":3935q8lt]Didn't you lose that category in Atlanta?[/quote:3935q8lt] That game was rigged!
blade740 (2008-11-29 20:53:10 +0000)
[quote="StefanPochmann":22it8heb][quote="Bob":22it8heb]Didn't you lose that category in Atlanta?[/quote:22it8heb] That game was rigged![/quote:22it8heb] Maybe if you'd brushed up on your limerick skills instead of relying on silly mathematics.
magicmania (2008-12-01 21:19:28 +0000)
I like this forum. :)
Shelley (2008-12-02 08:07:49 +0000)
[quote="blade740":3qktxiz3][quote="StefanPochmann":3qktxiz3][quote="Bob":3qktxiz3]Didn't you lose that category in Atlanta?[/quote:3qktxiz3] That game was rigged![/quote:3qktxiz3] Maybe if you'd brushed up on your limerick skills instead of relying on silly mathematics.[/quote:3qktxiz3] Well, either method would have led you to the right answer. Yay math limericks!
blade740 (2008-12-02 11:13:07 +0000)
But I had the answer while all the mathers were trying to differentiate or something like that. Had I been playing, and had it been a buzzer-style round, I would've won.
StefanPochmann (2008-12-02 13:57:43 +0000)
That was a limerick? Well, I didn't know how those work. But I really should've given an unintended but correct answer like in the previous year, too bad I only came up with one much later.
Shelley (2008-12-04 08:36:34 +0000)
"Is is not not not is not is is is is not" is not "is it not" :D
Masayuki (2009-01-25 15:09:03 +0000)
[quote:u1agaqp4]Don't you think we could have separate race or category for women, like in any other sports. At least in 3x3 speedcubing. And if there is more than one woman in a competition.[/quote:u1agaqp4] Hi, I think there is no difference between man and women in speedcubing. I also think we don't have many women cubers I don't think we should separate competition for women. But I agree to have another rankings for women and age groups. In Japan, we have three rankings: one for all cubers, women cubers, and kids cubers. I have plan to set more age categories. I believe these rankings encourage women cubers and kids cubers to participate in competitions. Masayuki Akimoto
Pitzu (2009-01-25 18:44:58 +0000)
[quote="Masayuki":1gdop902][quote:1gdop902]Don't you think we could have separate race or category for women, like in any other sports. At least in 3x3 speedcubing. And if there is more than one woman in a competition.[/quote:1gdop902] But I agree to have another rankings for women and age groups. [/quote:1gdop902] My original idea was only: - only for 3x3 speedcubing (no other events) - separate rankings and records - separate category only if there is more than n female cubers in the race and if the female competitors and/or the organizer wants. But until now you are the first who agrees with any of these issues. :cry:
Ron (2009-01-25 20:23:01 +0000)
We can always add some special statistics for young/old competitors and female/male competitors. And it is already possible to have separate competition rankings for an event. Although not shown in the WCA results pages, you can show it on the competition website. Ron
Pitzu (2009-02-25 14:32:56 +0000)
[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1153842/Are-lost-Why-women-worse-reading-maps-misplaced-keys.html:25k77up5]A nice new article[/url:25k77up5] about this topic.