timer position

[ofapel]

I recently saw the video of the current world record single in 3x3x3 with feet event. (video here)
Anssi Vanhala (and the competitor in the background) displayed the timer and the mat so that timer is behind the cube (from competitor point of view). I guess it is to avoid accidentally stopping the timer with heels during the solve.
It seems Anthony Hsu did the same at US nationals 2011 (video here, here and here)

I didn't find any rule that forbid it, even for speedsolving. However, I think that would be unfair to display the timer and the mat this way for speedsolving.
With fingers on sensors, palms down and having no contact with the cube, we still have the cube quite in hand.

Is there any rule I didn't notice?

[Ron]

Hi,

This is standard procedure for feet solving. I have never seen this done differently.

Technically it does not matter where the competitor stands, he/she could stand in front of the Stackmat timer or even next to the timer.
I think in normal solving it is a disadvantage to take a similar position as in feet solving.

Have fun,

Ron

[Henrik]

Rafael Cinoto does it "opposite" HERE

[ofapel]

I think in normal solving it is a disadvantage to take a similar position as in feet solving.

Really? The cube is quite in hand. In my opinion, taking a similar position in speedsolving looks like having the cube on the timer after inspection but A3d1 prevents us from doing this. I think that a rule must be added.

I do think that this way of displaying the timer and mat is really helpfull in speedsolving and even more in events like 2x2x2 or magic.

[Pedro_S]

I think in normal solving it is a disadvantage to take a similar position as in feet solving.

Really? The cube is quite in hand. In my opinion, taking a similar position in speedsolving looks like having the cube on the timer after inspection but A3d1 prevents us from doing this. I think that a rule must be added.

I do think that this way of displaying the timer and mat is really helpfull in speedsolving and even more in events like 2x2x2 or magic.

So you really think it's better to stretch your arms to start and stop the solve?

[ofapel]

I do really think that stretching arms don't annoy people either at the start or at the end of the solve. Try some and you should agree with me.

However, since there is absolutely no regulation about timer position, I don't see why it must be attached at the mat. Thus we could take advantage of the new position for starting the solve while keeping benefits of the current one for ending the solve. Puzzles will still remain flat on the surface and fingers on timers palms facing down.

[BryanLogan]

However, since there is absolutely no regulation about timer position

If every competitor decided they wanted to rearrange the timer, move the cable, and get things just perfect on every solve, it would be a mess.

[Sebastien]

It's up to the organiser to make all arrangements during the competition, not up to the competitor. So no competitor is allowed to put the timer how he wants to.

[ofapel]

It's up to the organiser to make all arrangements during the competition, not up to the competitor. So no competitor is allowed to put the timer how he wants to.

Where in the regulations is it written?

If every competitor decided they wanted to rearrange the timer, move the cable, and get things just perfect on every solve, it would be a mess.

First, the display is not a need. If you move your timer, you're not forced to plug the display and move the cable.
Second, even if you decide to move the timer, cables are long enough to stay plugged.

[Sebastien]

It's up to the organiser to make all arrangements during the competition, not up to the competitor. So no competitor is allowed to put the timer how he wants to.

Where in the regulations is it written?

very very early:

1b) The organisation team of a competition is responsible for:

1b1) Making all arrangements before and during the competition.

[BryanLogan]

It's up to the organiser to make all arrangements during the competition, not up to the competitor. So no competitor is allowed to put the timer how he wants to.

Where in the regulations is it written?

If every competitor decided they wanted to rearrange the timer, move the cable, and get things just perfect on every solve, it would be a mess.

First, the display is not a need. If you move your timer, you're not forced to plug the display and move the cable.
Second, even if you decide to move the timer, cables are long enough to stay plugged.

Yes, it's not needed, but if it's there, it's probably going to be used. Even if the person putting the timer in a non-standard place doesn't use it, the next competitor might want to use it.

Sebastien, I think "arrangement" in the regulation is meant to be things like "booking the room, handling negotiations, etc". I don't believe that it's dictating that the placement of the equipment is the sole privilege of the organizers.

[Sebastien]

Sebastien, I think "arrangement" in the regulation is meant to be things like "booking the room, handling negotiations, etc". I don't believe that it's dictating that the placement of the equipment is the sole privilege of the organizers.

I strongly disagree. Only because we usually allow competitors to make minor arrangements, doesn't mean that they are generally allowed to.
This rule is in fact one of the most important and allows to forbid competitors to place the timer and mat how and where they want, to take and put chairs from and to where they want, etc.

[Hippolyte]

I totally agree with ofapel. Without any rules, one could do approximatively what he want. I think (and all of you too i guess) that the WCA regulations needs to be very precise, so we shouldn't can find an omission like this. This rule must to be discussed, but in my opinion, one must to be added.

This is standard procedure for feet solving. I have never seen this done differently.

I don't understand how you can say that, because of the topic subject: no rule mean no standard position. And I've seen many times feet solves with the "normal" procedure. I may be stupid, but I don't even think to the other way when I start practising feet solving. Is it instinctive to do exactly the opposite than all the others events?

And I believe too that's an advantage to reverse the position, and that will not be a mess to do that, because like ofapel said, display isn't a need, and even tough is it use, the competitors doesn't need to move the cable, and it will be very fast, without importance, especially for events longer than a minute.

Hopefully to help the discussion, and sorry for the English,
Hippolyte

[ofapel]

Yes, it's not needed, but if it's there, it's probably going to be used. Even if the person putting the timer in a non-standard place doesn't use it, the next competitor might want to use it.

There are too ways of thinking:
- When using something in the unusual way, the common sense is to replace it afterwards. That's politeness. Time elapsed to put it back in place : less than 5 seconds.
- The timer is not replaced but putting it back in place by the next competitors will take at most 5 seconds.

And it doesn't affect schedule since there is :
A3b1) When the judge and the competitor mutually agree within one minute that the competitor is ready to begin the inspection, the judge says 'READY?'.

Sebastien, I think "arrangement" in the regulation is meant to be things like "booking the room, handling negotiations, etc". I don't believe that it's dictating that the placement of the equipment is the sole privilege of the organizers.

I totally agree with that.

[Gilles]

I didn't find any rule that forbid it, even for speedsolving. However, I think that would be unfair to display the timer and the mat this way for speedsolving.
With fingers on sensors, palms down and having no contact with the cube, we still have the cube quite in hand.

Is there any rule I didn't notice?

It's hard to define a strict timing station, but you're right, a rule is probably missing. Otherwise, some judges/organizers would accept it, not others.

Take a look at the following article:
A4b) The competitor must place his hands flat on the elevated sensor area of the Stackmat, with his fingers touching the sensors and with palms down. Penalty: 2 seconds.

We wanted to prevent any manipulation before the timer is triggered.
If you put the timing device behind the cube and the cube between your thumbs, you can almost grab it and start before fingers loose contact with the pads. A judge can't tell.

We can have an exception for feet solving.

[ofapel]

We wanted to prevent any manipulation before the timer is triggered.
If you put the timing device behind the cube and the cube between your thumbs, you can almost grab it and start before fingers loose contact with the pads. A judge can't tell.

We can have an exception for feet solving.

One more reason to forbid this kind of displaying for speedsolving but I agree feetsolving could benefit of an exception.